Steve Posted December 1, 2010 Share Posted December 1, 2010 I'm so sick of this shit. Ask 10 people which set they would listen to again and I reckon 9/10 non scratch djs would say jimmy's over rasp's(no offense). This should be the only judging criteria.I don't agree with that. A battle set may contain melodic elements that means you enjoy listening to it like you would enjoy listening to a song, but that's not all a battle is necessarily about. Whether Jimmy's set was judged fairly based on the given judging criteria is another matter. I've won one or two scratch battles on DJ Forums that I should have lost because non-scratch DJs were voting and they preferred my file, even though the other person was clearly a better scratcher and would have won had the voting taken place on here. People who scratch/battle or have been heavily into watching/listening for years often vote differently to non-scratch/battle DJs, which means your system wouldn't work unless the people voting were non-scratch DJs. Having non-scratch DJs as judges would make any battle a mockery. A friend of mine watched Muzzell's recent winning battle set and said to me that Muzz's scratching isn't any different to mine in his mind, which is an example of why battles have to be judged by people with experience as Muzzell is clearly leagues ahead of me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmy penguin Posted December 1, 2010 Share Posted December 1, 2010 ''I don't agree with that. A battle set may contain melodic elements that means you enjoy listening to it like you would enjoy listening to a song, but that's not all a battle is necessarily about. Whether Jimmy's set was judged fairly based on the given judging criteria is another matter'' i agree with that, we wouldn't do our normal set in a dmc because the same judging/opinion problem exists. believe me, if we do enter we'll be bringing heat!@ cambit'll be me and deviant most likely! @ folyyour always kicking off, i love it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djfoly Posted December 1, 2010 Share Posted December 1, 2010 I'm so sick of this shit. Ask 10 people which set they would listen to again and I reckon 9/10 non scratch djs would say jimmy's over rasp's(no offense). This should be the only judging criteria.I don't agree with that. A battle set may contain melodic elements that means you enjoy listening to it like you would enjoy listening to a song, but that's not all a battle is necessarily about. Whether Jimmy's set was judged fairly based on the given judging criteria is another matter. I've won one or two scratch battles on DJ Forums that I should have lost because non-scratch DJs were voting and they preferred my file, even though the other person was clearly a better scratcher and would have won had the voting taken place on here. People who scratch/battle or have been heavily into watching/listening for years often vote differently to non-scratch/battle DJs, which means your system wouldn't work unless the people voting were non-scratch DJs. Having non-scratch DJs as judges would make any battle a mockery. A friend of mine watched Muzzell's recent winning battle set and said to me that Muzz's scratching isn't any different to mine in his mind, which is an example of why battles have to be judged by people with experience as Muzzell is clearly leagues ahead of me. OK steve maybe its not as simple as how I put it but I think you know what I mean. What I'm saying is just cause something sounds bzzz cakakakakkak bzzz trrrrrkkkk doesn't mean its hard to do or technical. Its shit to listen to and that should be taken into account. If someone goes to the trouble of blending records together in their juggle to make a cohesive and original piece of music then that is the highest level of technicality as far as i'm concerned! As for the Muzzell point I don't agree with that at all. He may be leagues ahead of you but that does not make your music any less valid to any given listener...in fact many people may prefer your style. Muzzell is a sick scratch dj but if he started doing all bzzz kakkakkakkak eeeee oooo shit I'd hate it just as much as I do when anyone does it because it sounds fuckin awful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djfoly Posted December 1, 2010 Share Posted December 1, 2010 @ folyyour always kicking off, i love it! I know mate. when I first got on here it took about 3 months to convince everyone I wasn't just an annoying dick. I think theres a few on here who still hate me! I need to chill the fuck out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vekked Posted December 1, 2010 Author Share Posted December 1, 2010 I'm so sick of this shit. Ask 10 people which set they would listen to again and I reckon 9/10 non scratch djs would say jimmy's over rasp's(no offense). This should be the only judging criteria.I don't agree with that. A battle set may contain melodic elements that means you enjoy listening to it like you would enjoy listening to a song, but that's not all a battle is necessarily about. Whether Jimmy's set was judged fairly based on the given judging criteria is another matter. I've won one or two scratch battles on DJ Forums that I should have lost because non-scratch DJs were voting and they preferred my file, even though the other person was clearly a better scratcher and would have won had the voting taken place on here. People who scratch/battle or have been heavily into watching/listening for years often vote differently to non-scratch/battle DJs, which means your system wouldn't work unless the people voting were non-scratch DJs. Having non-scratch DJs as judges would make any battle a mockery. A friend of mine watched Muzzell's recent winning battle set and said to me that Muzz's scratching isn't any different to mine in his mind, which is an example of why battles have to be judged by people with experience as Muzzell is clearly leagues ahead of me. You took the text out of my keyboard. I was gonna write a big response to that comment, but I'm supposed to be writing a philosophy essay. This basically sums up my thoughts, musicality is definitely important, but I think that the whole idea that sound is the ultimate criteria and technique is irrelevant is VERY flawed in the context of a battle/music competition. Sound should clearly be weighed in, but usually from some sort of technical perspective in order to avoid too much subjective bias. For instance on beat > off beat in both sound and technicality, or in key > out of key, or varied/well composed > repetitive/sloppy or boring. I would even go so far as to say that this ideology, whether it is actively undertaken, or exists subconsciously within the judges, is one of the big reasons why battling has gotten absurdly wack and many people are unhappy with it. I can think of a heap of routines judging decisions in DMC that are almost certainly bad/wrong, and I think it has a lot to do with judges focussing on the wrong things/not knowing what to focus on. This results in pre-mapped out, beatmatched, sonically pleasing (arguably) routines scoring way higher than routines that are far better battle routines. It isn't about just having a routine that sounds good (in result), it's about having a routine that sounds good because the DJ made it sound good with what he was doing. I've used this example forever, but if transitions are in the judging criteria (which I believe they are in DMC), many custom routines should be getting NO points for transitions. The DJ didn't DO any transitions, and they should only be judge on what they DO not what it sounded like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doppelkorn Posted December 1, 2010 Share Posted December 1, 2010 Like Matt, you're way nicer in real life Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted December 1, 2010 Share Posted December 1, 2010 I think that the whole idea that sound is the ultimate criteria and technique is irrelevant is VERY flawed in the context of a battle/music competitionI think it's flawed when people talk about DJing as a whole like that, and many people do. Obviously, regular DJing is a different ball game to battling, but I think the idea that skills don't matter leads to people getting lazier and not learning the craft of DJing. You see people saying "only what comes out of the speakers matters" when they're trying to say technical skills don't matter, but technical DJing skills affect what comes out of the speakers. While the music selection is the bulk of it with regular DJing, the technical skills are the icing on the cake, the salt and vinegar on the fish and chips, the coke on the hooker's tits........ OK, so maybe I've gone too far with the analogies......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmy penguin Posted December 1, 2010 Share Posted December 1, 2010 I know mate. when I first got on here it took about 3 months to convince everyone I wasn't just an annoying dick. I think theres a few on here who still hate me! I need to chill the fuck out! you probably do need to chill out but speak your mind regardless! i always prefered woodies routines because they were differant, i think from living in ireland seing amazing dj's like savwar tu-ki and deviant, the experimental side of battling was always what apealed to me, instead of trying to do something better than the rest, do what they didnt think of doing best 6 minute dmc sets i ever saw were by savwar tu-ki and deviant 2004/2005, amazing stuff, we plan on uploading some of this shit when we sort through deviants biscuit tin of tapes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vekked Posted December 1, 2010 Author Share Posted December 1, 2010 There were no guidelines laid down as such - just that it was the technical section. I felt that Rasp's had more in terms of complex technique which I felt was the point of this category. I'm sure the other judges had a similar dilemma as I did as to who to put through, and to use a well worn cliché, it was so close - like changing my mind every time I watched the sets (certainly for me anyway). But in the end, I picked the DJ that I felt represented the technical section the best, both in this performance and others I've seen. Ah, I think that's a pretty big flaw in the organization of a battle and the judges. You shouldn't be left to make up your own criteria, since the criteria that you can objectively (or objectively-ish) compare 2 routines can massively change which one is the winner. Good judging criteria + judges which can adhere to it is what makes a battle format good or not. ITF had a good structure and thus resulted in some of the sickest battles because competitors knew what to bring, and judges knew what to look for. The more subjective it becomes, the more the battle dissolves into a war of opinions which can never be won. I don't fault you at all for your decision, as I think Rasp's routine was definitely more polished and had quite a bit of variation in the types of things he was incorporating. However, from a purely technical standpoint, I think a strong case can be made in favor of Jimmy's routine over Rasps. For myself it's as simple as feeling pretty confident that I could probably pull off Rasp's routine bar the fact that I don't have his records/have his routine memorized. I can't be confident that I could pull off Jimmy's first routine right away without practicing the coordination he uses to manipulate both the strings and the drums back and forth, and I'm even less confident I could pull off some of the cuts/patterns he does with the Ahhh without going to the lab for a bit and studying. With that said, I would still give it to Rasp slightly since his routine was more well rounded and polished despite nothing being overly technical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djfoly Posted December 1, 2010 Share Posted December 1, 2010 Technical skills matter I didn't say that they didn't matter! What i'm saying is that someone is more technically proficient if they can make it sound like an original piece of music as apposed to a collection patterns employed on a set of over complicated drum tracks. If you think back to the old days it was/is impossible to sound like craze or shortkut or plus one or thing or whoever because they developed a very individual style based on the limitations placed on them using vinyl. What im saying is that there are djs out there who use customs or serato as an extension of these techniques to open up new possibilities and others who just use it to make it sound more technical than it actually is! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vekked Posted December 1, 2010 Author Share Posted December 1, 2010 I think that the whole idea that sound is the ultimate criteria and technique is irrelevant is VERY flawed in the context of a battle/music competitionI think it's flawed when people talk about DJing as a whole like that, and many people do. Obviously, regular DJing is a different ball game to battling, but I think the idea that skills don't matter leads to people getting lazier and not learning the craft of DJing. You see people saying "only what comes out of the speakers matters" when they're trying to say technical skills don't matter, but technical DJing skills affect what comes out of the speakers. While the music selection is the bulk of it with regular DJing, the technical skills are the icing on the cake, the salt and vinegar on the fish and chips, the coke on the hooker's tits........ OK, so maybe I've gone too far with the analogies......... LOL, amen to this Steve. The method and the result can't just be separated, they're mutually dependent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmy penguin Posted December 1, 2010 Share Posted December 1, 2010 i agree with all that for suresies! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vekked Posted December 1, 2010 Author Share Posted December 1, 2010 Technical skills matter I didn't say that they didn't matter! What i'm saying is that someone is more technically proficient if they can make it sound like an original piece of music as apposed to a collection patterns employed on a set of over complicated drum tracks. If you think back to the old days it was/is impossible to sound like craze or shortkut or plus one or thing or whoever because they developed a very individual style based on the limitations placed on them using vinyl. What im saying is that there are djs out there who use customs or serato as an extension of these techniques to open up new possibilities and others who just use it to make it sound more technical than it actually is! Yea totally. Somethings that made some of the classic routines are lost nowadays. One of the sickest subtle things about some of the great old school routines were the transitions between tracks. Craze/Vajra/Kentaro/a lot of others clearly spent probably as much time as some do on their routine just finding ways to transition creatively from routine to routine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djfoly Posted December 1, 2010 Share Posted December 1, 2010 ^^^ Vajra is the king of transitions. Let me say the last I'll say on this subject If I was Judging that comp Jimmy would have won by a huge margin. The scratching is better the creativity is better the juggling is the thing where there is some contention but i think the idea for using that record to chop over the drumline and the transition into the record he cuts over (and fucking smashes it) takes more technical know how. It just my opinion but I did not see how rasps set was technically better! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted December 1, 2010 Share Posted December 1, 2010 As for the Muzzell point I don't agree with that at all. He may be leagues ahead of you but that does not make your music any less valid to any given listener...in fact many people may prefer your style. Muzzell is a sick scratch dj but if he started doing all bzzz kakkakkakkak eeeee oooo shit I'd hate it just as much as I do when anyone does it because it sounds fuckin awful.I think that's another example why your method wouldn't work though, as it just comes down to someone's particular taste and nothing more. I think in a battle you have to differentiate between "which one the Average Joe likes the most" and "which one is best based on a set of judging criteria", otherwise you may as well fill the DMC venue with non-DJs and judge the sets with a clap-o-meter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vekked Posted December 1, 2010 Author Share Posted December 1, 2010 ^^^ Vajra is the king of transitions. Let me say the last I'll say on this subject If I was Judging that comp Jimmy would have won by a huge margin. The scratching is better the creativity is better the juggling is the thing where there is some contention but i think the idea for using that record to chop over the drumline and the transition into the record he cuts over (and fucking smashes it) takes more technical know how. It just my opinion but I did not see how rasps set was technically better! No doubt I think it's close either way and definitely comes down to criteria. I think under standard battle criteria Rasp would edge Jimmy. Under slightly different criteria Jimmy would easily scoop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djfoly Posted December 1, 2010 Share Posted December 1, 2010 There is no easy solution. Although clap - o - meter might not be a bad idea! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vekked Posted December 1, 2010 Author Share Posted December 1, 2010 There is no easy solution. Although clap - o - meter might not be a bad idea! Ayo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmy penguin Posted December 1, 2010 Share Posted December 1, 2010 2009 - 7 entries, x-factor style2010 - 4 entries, 7 judges2011 - clap-o-meter..i love it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest loop skywalker Posted December 1, 2010 Share Posted December 1, 2010 ive said all along...if its a battle ...a real battle...it should have the following structure 2 rounds of 2 minutes djing 2 rounds of 2 minutes cage/street fighting 1 round of sudden death knife fighting on a serious note though...without sounding like im licking jimmies balls....his routine is one thats watchable /listenable over and over again...i for one cant wait to see how that goes down in a live disc jockey competition Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmy penguin Posted December 1, 2010 Share Posted December 1, 2010 ha, just found rasp dissing my routine on another forum! very funny! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djfoly Posted December 1, 2010 Share Posted December 1, 2010 post the diss!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmy penguin Posted December 1, 2010 Share Posted December 1, 2010 edit, it was someone on dj forums pretending to be rasp, anyway! i was very suprised at that and am glad to hear it wasnt him! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djfoly Posted December 1, 2010 Share Posted December 1, 2010 jesus! thats wierd! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest loop skywalker Posted December 1, 2010 Share Posted December 1, 2010 it was me you slags muhwhaha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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