reverse patterns...

[chile]

BTW - You could argue that any dot is redundant - all you really need is the line to show where the fader is open as in Carluccio's chirp notation. As you proved yourself though, that can confuse people.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

lol true, but that makes it harder to see a pattern (especially on grid paper) thats why carluccio made the advanced notation system.

[twitch]

http://www.geocities.com/table_twitch/chirp2edit.JPG

 

I just edited that pic u sent steve with an overlay of my drawing and what u propose the notation should be..

 

I agreee that a good representation should exist - but i think having 2 different dots at each point complexs thing - espeacially for more complex scratchs.. As there will be twice as many dots in less space in quicker succession - too hard - keep it simple - just represent the middle of any cut....

[flowerpot]

yes 2 dot method on the afformentioned

[chile]

... sorry but that notation is a more complicated, misleading version of notation..

 

 

the round black outlined dots are where you could put a single black dot in the notation to simplfy it.. a fader click has a segment where its closed, and a segment where its open, whats the point in adding it.. it just complicates it so much more.

[chile]

The problem with the chirp transcription is in other drawings you're saying "click the fader here" but with the chirp you're not. If you just clicked the fader briefly off and on at the very end of a sound, you wouldn't get a chirp. See it depends if you're trying to accurately represent techniques in visual form, or just represent a scratch with an image.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Your wrong, the dot represtents the space where the fader must be close

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

spot on.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Steve]

http://www.geocities.com/table_twitch/chirp2edit.JPG

 

I just edited that pic u sent steve with an overlay of my drawing and what u propose the notation should be..

 

I agreee that a good representation should exist - but i think having 2 different dots at each point complexs thing - espeacially for more complex scratchs.. As there will be twice as many dots in less space in quicker succession - too hard - keep it simple - just represent the middle of any cut....

Scratching isn't simple though so you can't expect to use simple diagrams to represent it. What about transforms? Let's say you did 3 short transforms followed by a longer one. How do you represent the longer one with only one dot? With transforms you click the fader on, with flares you click it off, but again you would use the same dot right?

 

If I was gonna describe a chirp using the top half of your drawing to someone who had never seen any kind of notation, I would say the line represents the forwards and backwards movement of the record. Simple to understand and applies to all notation. Then I'd say where there is a black dot you close the fader, where there is a white one you open it. Can't get much simpler than that. How would you describe the drawing in the bottom half of the picture?

[twitch]

What about transforms? Let's say you did 3 short transforms followed by a longer one. How do you represent the longer one with only one dot? With transforms you click the fader on, with flares you click it off, but again you would use the same dot right?

 

http://www.geocities.com/table_twitch/scratchnotation2.JPG

 

I just revised this and added in a transform into halftime transform...

[Steve]

OK how would you notate this transform?

 

transform.mp3

 

 

Obviously a dead simple scratch, but the transforms on the forward part are 3 times as long as the ones on the reverse. Post a notation bitch!

[twitch]

http://www.geocities.com/table_twitch/transformedit.JPG

 

Done.

[Steve]

I'm not really getting that one mate. All the dots are the same, regardless of how long the fader is open. The steepness of the line indicates slower forward, faster back which is right, but other than that the dots suggest the fader movement is the same in both directions and it's not.

[chile]

I'm not really getting that one mate. All the dots are the same, regardless of how long the fader is open. The steepness of the line indicates slower forward, faster back which is right, but other than that the dots suggest the fader movement is the same in both directions and it's not.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

look at the spacing between the dots.. if they were the same in both movements, then there would be an equal distance between them.

[Steve]

But the dot itself represents the fader click right? It's the same forward and backwards.

 

What you say is also flawed, because I move the record the same distance forward as I do backwards, yet the line representing the forward is a lot longer. There is a ratio between the two, that's all.

[twitch]

Works for me... I dont see any complexity...

[x2k]

Christ, why you all arguing about dots for fuck sake, if you look at the TTM spec you will see you can also represent closed fader by not drawing lines at all, then you can show exactly how long you're clicks are. The purpose of a dot is a very quick click, possibly too small to note by leaving a gap but to get more specific just leave gaps....

 

[chile]

Christ, why you all arguing about dots for fuck sake, if you look at the TTM spec you will see you can also represent closed fader by not drawing lines at all, then you can show exactly how long you're clicks are. The purpose of a dot is a very quick click, possibly too small to note by leaving a gap but to get more specific just leave gaps....

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

agreed.

[Steve]

Twitch, without knowing how long the fader is actually open for in a transform, your notation could be interpreted like this: -

 

transform2.mp3

 

Exact same scratch except all clicks are the same length instead of longer on the forward. If you notated this, wouldn't it be the same as the other one, because the clicks are all in the exact same place?

[twitch]

But the dot itself represents the fader click right?

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO

 

It represents the MIDDLE of the cut - give or take a few milleseconds each side of the red line is the actual sound being switched off then on- the red line is just the guts of the cut.

 

Also the first red dot doesnt represent a click - just that u start with a closed fader.. As there should be one at the end of the scratch to represent the end being cut and kept shut.

[x2k]

Ignore this post, it's just a test...

 

Frank Zapper!

[mattnice]

frank zap her, i told ya once and ill tell ya again Zap her

[Steve]

You're actually making less sense as you go along. The first dot represents a closed fader. OK. So where exactly do I open it for the first time in this drawing?

 

http://www.geocities.com/table_twitch/transformedit.JPG

 

 

What you're saying in effect is the opposite to what I'm saying - that the dot represents the gap in between each sound, but the gap in between each sound can be different lengths so cannot be represented by the same dot each time.

 

The dot in the middle of the forwards or backwards movement is also used by you to represent a flare, but this isn't a flare.

[chile]

for fucks sake. ITS A LEARNING AID.. A diagram can't accuratly depict timing enough. Its used to visualise patterns in conjunction with sound or on its own to provide insight into patterns which you wouldn't normally conceive. If you were anal enough, you could use a combination of spaces and dots to more accuratly show the transform.

 

Thats a transform flare.. a transform which tries to emulate a flare.. alot of noobs (me, the first time i tryed flaring) do them thinking they're flares because of the 4 sounds.

[Steve]

But the only person who can read the fucking things properly is the one who drew them in these cases so they ain't much of a learning aid. I'll leave you to it, but until everyone drawing up notation is doing the same thing it's a blind alley.

[twitch]

You're actually making less sense as you go along.

And im having mental hemorrage trying to explain!

 

The first dot represents a closed fader. OK. So where exactly do I open it for the first time in this drawing?

 

http://www.geocities.com/table_twitch/transformedit1.JPG

 

What you're saying in effect is the opposite to what I'm saying - that the dot represents the gap in between each sound, but the gap in between each sound can be different lengths so cannot be represented by the same dot each time.

Yep exactly - but i assume those different length gaps can be figured out if u give them the middle point and timing.

 

The dot in the middle of the forwards or backwards movement is also used by you to represent a flare, but this isn't a flare.

 

Nope - but transfoms have the same middle timing as a flare - a transform is a flare with the ends closed in. Completly different fader style needed, but, the middle click timing is same.

 

Try to see the relationship from transform - across to cresent flare(still yet to be argued!!) and up to single click flare - all have same 2 cuts at same time..

 

http://www.geocities.com/table_twitch/scratchnotation2.JPG

[jsong56]

YA'LL ARE ACTUALLY ARGUING ABOUT SCRATCH NOTATION?

 

 

BLOODY HELL!

[jsong56]

draw it/write it which ever way u understand it. simple