Having someone else create your DMC routine.....

[Vekked]

i would love to see that happen, everone has the same tracks and see what peeps come with.

could get kinda boring tho.lol

 

I believe in one of the Guitar Center battles that was sponsored by Stones Throw people had to use the same Stones Throw record for 1 round of the finals or something... I don't think many good routines came out of it tho, lolll

[Steve]

I think Rafik's later routines were clearly a step up on the earlier ones personally, in terms of overall construction of the routine.

 

But why do you think people pay for this stuff if you believe that it's doing them no good whatsoever? It puts them in the firing line for criticism too, yet they still do it.

 

I think track/sample selection should still matter, but only as far as how original or how well it's used, not how subjectively "good" the songs are. I dunno, is it too much to ask that a DJ battle be judged on DJing and not other stuff?

 

I wasn't implying that "oh I like this song!" should be a plus point for a battle routine. If that was the case and I was a judge, all those Skrillex and dubstep routines would get 0 points from me no matter what, haha. Track selection is a part of DJing overall though, but when you only listen to Super Seal and loopers it's hard to appreciate that element.

[Vekked]

I think Rafik's later routines were clearly a step up on the earlier ones personally, in terms of overall construction of the routine.

 

I think his 04 routine is pretty F well put together. And his Hi-Speed Rockit juggle is def the best juggle he ever did straight up. And I think a case could be made that his best scratch routines were in ITF.

 

But why do you think people pay for this stuff if you believe that it's doing them no good whatsoever? It puts them in the firing line for criticism too, yet they still do it.

 

I think the reasons are varying. The first guys probably was like an experiment, and an opportunity to try different things. I think for a lot of guys it's just following in the footsteps of Netik/Rafik because they won doing it, even though most have no chance, because they're overlooking the fact that Netik/Rafik were world champs and all around beasts way before they ever made their custom 6 min.

 

I think Unkut is the only one to push some boundaries with a custom/produced routine (but he hasn't done one in a live battle either), but at the same time it's hard to say if he couldn't have done the same stuff anyways. I think if he decided to make a 6 min without any custom tracks it'd still be quite good.

 

I think track/sample selection should still matter, but only as far as how original or how well it's used, not how subjectively "good" the songs are. I dunno, is it too much to ask that a DJ battle be judged on DJing and not other stuff?

 

I wasn't implying that "oh I like this song!" should be a plus point for a battle routine. If that was the case and I was a judge, all those Skrillex and dubstep routines would get 0 points from me no matter what, haha. Track selection is a part of DJing overall though, but when you only listen to Super Seal and loopers it's hard to appreciate that element.

 

Ahem I listen to plenty of drum breaks compilations these days too.

[x2k]

I don't think it matter, I think all the different methods are fine, however to really judge a competition the rules and limitations have to be clearly defined to compare like with like fairly. Saying that I take the DMCs as a bit of fun and entertainment so I don't think it matters but it might feel some what different for someone competing at the world finals.

 

I'd actually love to produce a routine for someone, I got some amazing ideas however sadly I don't really have the time to make the commitment.

[Le jad]

I think that there's many misunderstanding points when I read that I produce sets, beat jugglings and that DJs do not dig. It's because people don't know what I really do. So you're talking in details about something you don't know at all.

 

- Some people ask me for something and pay for it. First important point: I earn much more money when I produce for singers, wack dance music etc. But I love turntablism, and I prefer being paid less and work with turntablists (exepted this guy this year who stole me).

 

- It was not about paying anything the first years. But as there was some price money, I got something. If they didn't give any price money I would never get paid by Rafik and Netik. I worked with Troubl' : he lost, I got nothing, I worked with Ordoeuvre, he lost many times, I never asked for money or anything.

 

- I never talk with Unkut about money, but when i finaly won the online DMC he gave me some money, because there was a price money.

 

I worked with other DJs at the same time who were friends, like Ligone, when he came at my place to work, he gave me some money, but it was because I had to stop working on a project, and he was not rich, I was not paid more than if i was working in a fast food (I was paid less). If you compare the time spent to work with Rafik or Netik, and the money I had at the end, I don't know if I've been paid, it's like working for really less than what you earn working in a fast food. Really. So, first point, it's not all about money. Of course now people pay, but it's reasonale. And, as I'm not a good commercial, I always ask less or work much more than what they asked me to do.

 

Second point:

 

I worked with Skillz this year and other DJs. Most of them digg the samples, the beats, the song, etc. If they ask me to create all, theyy have to pay a lot... why? because I don't like this way of working, and I don't want to develop this too much, it goes AGAINST them to ask me to produce all, to digg all, and to writte their juggle patterns. And even if they want to pay more, I tell them, explain them it's not a good idea. So if somebody finaly ask you 20 time : "please work for me, create a routine for me", would you say no?

 

So turntablists bring some songs they want to remix or juggle, what do they ask me to do? sometimes only a mixdown and mastering Why? sometimes the beat is too "full of sounds", so I slice it, recreate it and make some EQ, bring other drum kits, use sidechains, add some subs and make the the same beat that they bring to me, but much more pleasant to scratch. Or with better drum kits if they want, for a beat juggling or a drumming.

 

Did I create any pattern? Did i create any melody in this case? NO.

 

Some people have some juggle patterns, and they create a melody, use some drum kit, but in the end they are not satisfied, because of the mixdown, mastering, drum kits, compression, the synth sounds wack, they want a bassline, etc. So I do my job and add elements, change the drums, add some little melody arrangements, filters... But i work step by step, somtimes theyy don't like, I have to do it again. In this case, I don't change the patterns, and i don't change the main melody. THEY JUST ASK FOR SOME PRODUCER SKILLS. I'm not their mother...

 

OK, so another case: some people ask me to create a routine. They want everything created by me. Before I accept, I say 3 things:

- the judges at the DMC may recognize my sound, it goes against you, pay attention, skills count first, you will never be a champ just with my sounds

- bring as much samples that you like as you can

- it's better to start with a beat juggling that you already execute perfectly, we'll keep the idea, and rebuild something new

 

And as much as I can, i try to invlove them into the production process. If somebody ask me to create 100%, it's rare to have the routine done, everything done and sent into a zip file lol. They have different patterns, different melody, they change their ideas, they test, they cut parts, paste others, we exchange points of view; And most of the time when we exchange ideas, points of views, I act like a really old school minded person focusing on thhe skills and scratch//juggle patterns. When I think it's shit, i say "you routine is shit right now", or "OK it's sounds heavy and dope, but you should practice much more, you will never pass the prelims in London, you don't have the level to be in the top 12". That's why some people feel hurt when they work with me, and never come back or think that I don't deserve to get paid (as this guy I already talked about).

 

There's also another case, some people writte something very precise for me to work on a routine, it's like following a reciep, I fell just like a simple

WORKER, with a chief telling me "do this, do that, and please, do the mixdown again". So i don't know what they really want, but i think they just want the sound to be nice, and I think they do not have production skills, or they feel not confident with their own production skillz. But they exactly know what kind of patterns or scratch combo they will use, and i have nothing to say about it.

 

As all turntablists are different, I can't mention all the details and other case that could contradict some of your opinions. As I won't talk about all the "mental" aspect of my job, I coach and entertain people, I push pressure, encourage, because i like it and I like competitions.

 

Last thing: when I had no computer and when I was deejaying with some french turntablists, we started to work on some routines in a way. With original vinyls, no custom records. We were just like a team exchanging ideas, one guy of the team showing a new combo, another guy was bettter for beat juggling, encouraging the other guys. Then some of them entered competitions, we were a team and everybody was showing his routines, asking fo some criticies, entertaining the others... sometimes, a guy was giving a pattern idea to another. I don't know if it was gay or wack. But it was already working like now... and when I talk about this with some world champions, they were already working like this with some friends...

 

There's nothing realy new. And do not think that it helps to work with me when turntablists are wack: it's worse for them. And the jury will feel it, always. They will understand there's something weird happening, like all those guys juggling with 6 Skrillex songs with no skills... bad skills + hard sounds never make a world champ (hummmmmmmm maybe this guy: Nelson...)

 

Very last point: I know I'm not the only one to produce for turntablists, many turntablists did it with some of their friends before me, and some turntablists make us think they produced themself their routines... but they didn't. How many toook a pattern to their friends who don't enter the competition, with thhe same songs, I heard so many stories like this... so should those guy also be judged as using the idea of a friend, and not digging the song they use?

[Steve]

This thread wasn't supposed to be solely about you, which is why I didn't mention your name in the thread title nor first post. Obviously, I can see why your name would be mentioned though.

 

It surprises me that any DJ would say it's OK for someone to be paid to create a routine for another person to use in competition. It's fucking lame. People are paying to do shit they should be doing themselves and if they can't do it, don't enter. People moan about lack of creativity and then co-sign this bullshit where 1 guy is basically making lots of routines that sound the same. It's a joke.

[Vekked]

It surprises me that you're more mad about it than me and I'm the one about to battle these guys.

[Le jad]

That sound the same?

 

Some DJs entered the top 12 (and even top 3) and nobody mentionned they worked with me for a mastering or production... because their own digging and decisions makes impossible to say "le jad did work with him". It talk about 6mins but also teams and supremacy.

A few years ago, turntablists should have be hanged for using customs, after that it was about serato, and now it's about working with other people... Many guys entered DMC or IDA with some routine they co produced with some different producers (so NOT ME), can you recognize who did it or not? some teams too, can you tell me wich team?

 

You would be surprised by how much people already work this way (i was surprised myself, i didn't know there was so much). But as they feel some shame or are afraid to be judged like lazy turntablists they don't say it (some of them are not lazy, but it's like custom records, with some stickers making us think it's some regular vinyls). And their friends who produce don't say it. And the jury will think they didn't co produce their set

 

I prefer to say it, even if it's not good for "buisness". Or to say to a guy "maybe you should work your skills much more" and loose some money.

 

Compare this way to work with the way it was before computers and serato. Do you know that some world champions worked with some other turntablists to digg and to work their skills, routines, etc. in the 90's ?

You don't know it? some people used routines at the world that were some of their friends routines. And those guys are respected by the most old school heads. Is it a joke? no... were they only from europe? no. Some americans did it, some europeans did it, for the rest of the world I don't know.

 

We should ask the DMC to retire their title.

 

Should the turntablists who work with some producers should be pointed as not creative or sounding the same? I don't know, but it already happens. Some judges already diid it at the world final. I know it. They judged some turntablists as "produced by le jad". But at the same time, they didn't understand that othe turntablist had their set co produced or produced by other producers.

 

Some people think I produced for dj Fly, i never did. Some people say that some teams are dope, but sometimes 1 of the guy produces everything for the 3 others. Some became world champions like this.

[Steve]

Who in the 90s was peddling an "I will create your entire routine for you for the right fee" service to DJs?

 

As for customs/Serato, routines don't just create themselves because you can press your own 12" or use any samples you want with a DVS.

 

I probably would be surprised by the number of people doing it, but more people doing something doesn't automatically make it more acceptable. Outside of competitions, who cares, but if it's a competition where a DJ is supposed to do a solo routine then paying a guy to create that routine is fucking lame!

[Le jad]

So you don't take in account all what I explained about "paying to create". It's not like this most of the time. You focus on a minority. I think that if you would see how it works for real, you would change completely your opinion.

 

Customs and serato was already a massive beef. People had always something to say against it. Don't say that it was just a question of creativity or not. It becomes "normal" now. Soon it will become totaly normal to work with some producers, to produce, to work with musicians (as i already did for some routines, guitar players, violins, etc.).

 

It's a transition, I hope it'll become something nice.

 

Do you like the thousands of turntablists who entered competitions with hip hop songs on real vinyls, but copying all the juggle patterns they saw on a VHS? was it better, the same songs, same pattern, but with a bad executions, so many wack guys before... so there is more now? I don't think so. Lazy wack guys are still lazy wack guys, that's all. I was going to the DMC every year when i was younger, most of the people entering in France were just bad copys of world champions. Like now.

Edited September 22, 2012 by Le jad

[Steve]

So you don't take in account all what I explained about "paying to create". It's not like this most of the time. You focus on a minority.

 

I am focussed on a minority. Erm.....so? lol.

 

Customs and serato was already a massive beef. People had always something to say against it. Don't say that it was just a question of creativity or not. It becomes "normal" now. Soon it will become totaly normal to work with some producers, to produce, to work with musicians (as i already did for some routines, guitar players, violins, etc.).

 

Customs and Serato don't create routines for you.

 

Do you like the thousands of turntablists who entered competitions with hip hop songs on real vinyls, but copying all the juggle patterns they saw on a VHS? was it better, the same songs, same pattern, but with a bad executions, so many wack guys before... so there is more now?

 

That shit hasn't changed. People are trying to copy DJs that you have produced routines for using battle records that you have made - same shit as back in the day. That's a completely different issue to actually paying a guy to make your routine though.

[Le jad]

- Yes you focus on a minority. On my side, i can say : less than 3 DJs this year, and some do not win the national DMC. I say a minority because turntablists asking for a routine creation (100%, and even 75%) are rare, and I don't accept all the time because I know the result is very bad most of the time. When I do the masteging for a DJ, even with some very technical process to make the sound better, I don't consider that he looses creativity. And people in the public who pay their ticket should be happy to have less agressive frequencies, les overload subs etc. When I rebuild some beats, or change drum kits, i don't think it has to see with creativity.

 

- So maybe 1 guy this year wiill enter the DMC with a set with a lot of creation by me. 1 in a year. Most of the other guy asked me to co produce some parts, did their own patterns, etc. It's not paying me to make the job... as I already explained it.

 

- I don't know for other DJs, but maybe you're right, other guys have been 100 produced and influenced by another person, and won't say it, feeling like a shame. I can't say you're wrong if many people did this. I talk about what I know.

 

- You say customs and serato don't create routines, but it has been a massive beef for years, you can't say it hasn't be a beef. It was supposed to be the end of battling. When you use cue points, when you don't need any stickers, when you are 100% sure that your set won't skip, you take advantage of the evolution of the rules. Remember Precision showing a vinyl to a crowd and say I use real records... so he won't use cue points, and after all: he won't use serato, and of course won't use the rane buttons with cue points in his set this year. OK, this is not about creativity, but it's already one step, that was something like a war in this game for years.

 

- When DJ Slyce came at the world DMC with all his set in 2 files with only 2 custom records (so no stickers, all edited with a computer to put routines together) you can't say it wasn't important. When you can't use a custom records, creativity is always needed for transitions etc. When you start to put all the routines on the same side of the record, you start to stop creating with vinyls, you have less limits, you use the computer, and maybe after that, you will pay a guy in a studio to grab your records, and the job of this guy is to make a special mastering on your files to make it possible to grab on a vinyl. You pay him, and you took advantage of the computer, he also influenced the sound. With real vinyl, you don't have to pay this specialist and you will keep the real original sound that all the other people have at home. You can tell me I'm wrong, that it's not comparable. But I won't agree with you, it's always step by step...

 

- Singers, MC, musicians ask some people to work with them, some MCs buy some beats. Now some turntablists buy some songs on beatport to juggle them, they edit it, use cue points and some buttons on their rane mixer, and they pay a producer now to make a beat that feets with some scratch sounds. Or they pay a producer to make a synth melody to scratch with when they have no production skills. So, before they could not do that. What were they doing? asking some people of their crew to give them a juggle pattern? it happened.

 

So paying a guy to make a routine, from what i know, is something rare, most of the time it's a co production, or some mastering, or only a part of a routine etc. You're wrong, it doesn't work as you think - on my side. I don't know how other people do. But when some turntablists ask me PLEASE I really need a routine, how much is it, I want to habe a routine made by you, etc. I accept. I tell them, they should not ask me to do all, but if they have the money, if they ask me, if i explain the risk and if I say that i do not really agree with this way of working, I don't feel bad. I know they won't get a world title, some people ask for some services, I don't know why, not only for routines, but for their car, their garden, their childs...

[Steve]

Serato and customs have been beefs, but implying "they were beefs and people accepted that, so they will with this" doesn't make any sense to me as the issue is completely different. You are replacing one of the main skills of being a battle DJ - creating the actual routine - in exchange for money! That's lame. Big walls of words don't change that man.

 

And don't imply that you have principles about this shit either! You say that you know creating 100% of a routine ends up "very bad most of the time", but you still do it, right? You're giving people who otherwise would not be entering a way to enter - that's not making the scene better. It's making it worse. But you're getting paid, so it's all good.

[Le jad]

So, if some people ask you to make a job, you refuse? yes i have principles, I could make much more money and accept all the time, i could even do worst and make some pre made routines, with different options that people choose.

 

You still think that what i do is like taking money and sending a full pack with all done for the DJs... you're completely wrong. Maybe you like some DJs who took a routine from their crew for the world final. OK they didn't pay... but at this moment they didn't create.

 

When I say to a guy: you should do your routines alone or come up with all the ideas, sometimes people say "you're right, i will ask you to work on my set next year". So in this case, i don't earn any money, and this guy understand he has to work a lot more before asking a service. So i don't feel bad, and I say in public what I do. Other guys do not. And some are world champions.

 

It's not walls of words, i explain things, and different points of view. And I still continue to work hard with some DJs who compete. People who enter battles, people who help each other, some sell services... don't watch sport on TV, don't listen to music bands...

 

Do you know that there's some sponsorship with the DMC?

[x2k]

Who in the 90s was peddling an "I will create your entire routine for you for the right fee" service to DJs?

 

I forget who it was who paid someone to develop a magic trick (which was sabotaged) for them in a very early DMC (was it DJ Cheese?)? Is that any different?

[Jon]

I think it comes down to what you do with the sounds. People who have had beats or sounds made by le had have won world titles because they have skills, and people have been knocked out of competitions using le had produced routines because all they can do is bsckcue. The only instance I think it would have made a difference was the year netik one as he was the first person to do routines with thst approach, but only if it was a close tie with another Dj. Because he was bringing a new sound/approach to the table I would have voted for him if it was a close tie. In that instance I'd see having sounds produced for you as a way of having an advantage, but the same could be achieved by originality in digging for records/samples. However, from what I remember netik was the clear winner technically thst year anyway so it wouldn't make a difference.

From my perspective, if I was judging I look for technicality, originality and musicality first, and if it's a close tie I'd be using originality as the decider, so in that case someone using a producer that other people had already used might work against them, but only so slightly.

[Jon]

Sorry about the spelling I'm on my phone.

[Steve]

@Le jad - While I do think that people paying to have routines created is wackness, I apologise for going at you as hard as I did in some of those posts. I sounded like even more of a cunt than I usually do in some of them and I didn't mean to.

 

@Jon - I'm really only talking about people who pay to have routines created, not people who pay for songs, beats or samples.

[Le jad]

No problem Steve, I'm agressive sometimes and writte a lot. At least we talk and I always question myself since 6 years now about this subject. I prefer to exange ideas with people than to say "buisness is buisness, I take the money and no problem".

[Guest loop skywalker]

I totally agree with everything le jad says,.

[Guest loop skywalker]

some djs dont have a clue about making routines,its not like the old days anymore where you would just use ,and be limited to using just vinyl.Some djs have an idea about a routine..then when it comes down to it,it doesnt work or sounds horrendous when put out on a custom vinyl.This is where guys like le jad improve for the listener and for the dj. I misunderstood le jad a few years back...but totally respect what he does.

[Steve]

Some djs have an idea about a routine..then when it comes down to it,it doesnt work or sounds horrendous when put out on a custom vinyl.

 

If it doesn't work, then I would say they need to put more work in. If it sounds shit only when it's pressed to custom vinyl, then they can pay to get it mastered properly, but that's different from someone creating a routine.

[Le jad]

Hum, even in the best studio, the guy who will do the mastering does not necessary know anything about vinyl frequencies/limits/stereo and low frequencies that make skipping, fades out between sounds in a beat juggling or in a drumming to have no skip. He can make the sound heavy but in a very bad way, because it will sound shit on vinyl. I worked with some guys who grab custom records, it's a science, and when you take care about it when you produce your routine, the result at the end is far better. I had a bad sound with Netik, and 1 year after learning a lot and testing a lot, Rafik had a very good sound on his vinyls.

 

Rafik had a big skip when he won. That's a little part where I compressed the sound a lot, without doing some fades out. It takes just 10 seconds to open his file, find this part, make the fade out large enough, save the file... he could have lost because of this if Pfel would have win the french DMC.

 

If you have a bad mixdown, if all is wack, even with a good studio you won't have a miracle. So you can ask a producer to help you.

 

Many good producers pay for mixdown masterings in good studios, are they bad producers? no...

Some very good musicians ask for arrangements on their album... they are good musicians but they want another point of view. I don't pay attention.

[dissonance]

I'm with Steve on this.

 

if this is supposed to be an actual dj'ing competition....then sourcing your sounds and designing the routine are paramount because that's what dj'ing is. If you're paying someone to do either of those tasks for you, i'm of the opinion you just skipped two of the central aspects of the art.

[djdiggla]

Should this count against you in the competition? Obviously, it's pretty much impossible to know if someone has created their own routine or not, but isn't creating a routine also supposed to be part of the skill of being a battle DJ?

 

 

Nah. I'd prefer DJs create their own set but ultimately their skills are what (should) make the routine.