Having someone else create your DMC routine.....

[Le jad]

I assume everything I do. When i have a long discussion and finaly accept, it's his problem, I explain what i think about it, and he wants to pay for a service. Most of the time, they open the zip file, and change half of what is inside, modify patterns, etc. I don't think it already happend to do a zip file, then the DJ keeps everything like it is. You don't know how it works, you didn't hear what i really do then whhat turntablists do.

 

We're talking about a principle: somebody create for another, wich is never the case 100% in reality. So what upset you is more the fact that they pay or that they don't create all what they use? if they don't pay, is it still 100% a problem for you? because it's like if you wake up suddenly after years.

[djdiggla]

Look what the thread title is and what post 1 is. The question was "if someone else creates your routine for you, should this count against you in a battle?" and what I'm getting is a pretty resounding "no", but I don't understand why. All this other bullshit you guys are coming out with is irrelevant. Explain to me why a DJ basically doing a cover version of someone else's routine is counted as "just the same" as if that DJ had created the entire routine himself.

 

It's like if I said to Dirk, "someone else wrote all of 2Pac's lyrics", would he be just as good an MC as if he write them himself? Fuck no. He's just a karaoke MC. You wouldn't say "it's only what the finished product sounds like that matters" which is what you're trying to do here, cos you have to judge the complete package and some of you guys are trying really hard not to do that in order to justify your wonky opinions, lol.

 

Battling is what doesnt judge the complete DJ package and thats the context we are discussing this in.

 

Your Pac comparison is pretty good but would be more accurate to compare the MC battle scene to the DJ battle scene.

 

You are hung up on the ENTIRE craft (and for good reason). Battling is taking an artform and turning it into a sport. It can't encompass the artform as a whole. The best DJs in the world will not even battle for that very reason. Battling is bullshit.

 

As far as the original question:

No, the origins of your set should not count against you. There is a long history of crew members making sets for each other. It would be impossible to police and therefore impossible to fairly account for. This is just a continuation if the ever evolving "what is cheating in battling" argument. The performance is what should matter in the battle.

 

Now that said, as a whole I think DJs that don't make their own sets should be looked down on by their peers. It's pretty lame. But that's the artform side of it.

 

 

[dissonance]

 

On a side note ...the whole dmc thing lately is meh.

 

Fucking EXACTLY! Like I said before, this whole shit is fucking clown shoes!

 

Basically, this whole discussion is moot given the irrelevance of the DMCs now. This is why they're doing that bullshit online competition which is really tantamount to a, dick waving, popularity contest from high school.

 

Paying someone to craft your routine is a shortcut, plain and simple. Its cheating as far as I'm concerned. And this means that Le Jad facilitates cheating.

[Le jad]

"And this means that Le Jad facilitates cheating."

 

Again, people talk about something they don't know/understand in details. If you read all the answers, there's enough details to have a beginning of understanding what we're talking about, but it's even more complex. You really think people make a payment and got some magic files that all feet together in a very easy way. So you don't know what you're talking about. Concerning my way of working. It's maybe different with all the other people doing it (do not forget they exist).

[Steve]

@Le jad - I think it's lame that someone is offering a service where they will create 100% of a routine for a DJ and send it to them in a zip file, and I think it's even lamer that DJs would stoop to the level of paying for that service. It would still be lame if you did it for free though.

 

@Dirk - It being impossible to police doesn't make it not lame. If you want to compare it to an MC battle, what if it was me Vs. you - I win, but then you find out that all my lyrics were written by a more skilled MC that I'd paid? You would think that's fucking weak and you'd be right to think that. Even if I would have crushed you in the battle if I'd written the lyrics myself, it doesn't matter.

 

Saying "it's been going on for years", "lost of DJs do it" or "Le Jad isn't the only one" - that doesn't make any difference at all. That's just an attempt at an appeal to common practice to try and say "it's common, so we should accept/ignore it".

[dissonance]

I'm of the position that designing and sourcing the material for the routine is a PRIME aspect of the competition. You get paid to do this for people.

 

Its very plain and simple, Le Jad.

 

And just because there isn't a method to police folks from not having others do this for you, doesn't mean that its not an issue and it should just be forgotten.

[Le jad]

I don't say that because some people did it years ago, it should be admitted as a normal fact. I used many important points and facts to explain things, i had no answers. You opened a topic, and I'm here, not to defend a buisness, as it's a little message board with nothing concerning new costumers or shit like this.

 

What is completely mad is to talk about a police, or to get a way to find who do this, and eliminate them from competitions, because you have a point of view about battling. Some people have different points of views, like the favorite to take the first place this year at the world final, i can say it, he has a different point of view, whatever he said in public... Dissonance, if it was really possible, you would be happy to have a police to control everything?

 

So it's not plain and simple. It's also an evolution for many reasons. Try to answer point by point, all what you say is easy talking, looking like some youtube comments, not looking like a debate between a few people on a message board. You say "I'm of the position that..." but when i read your post, I feel that your position should be the rule.

 

If you watch a set filmed at the DMC, with the style of music you like the most, you may not identify if the DJ had some people helping him to build his set, or somebody to produce some parts of the routines. If they don't assume it, you'll never know. So I hopewe'll find a special police to detect them. If we can't, many of you should stop watching what happens at the DMC.

[dissonance]

If you watch a set filmed at the DMC, with the style of music you like the most, you may not identify if the DJ had some people helping him to build his set, or somebody to produce some parts of the routines. If they don't assume it, you'll never know. So I hopewe'll find a special police to detect them. If we can't, many of you should stop watching what happens at the DMC.

 

Right, I might not notice that someone helped them put together their set. As already addressed here, that was certainly the case with the X-ecutioners, and quite possibly with the Scratch Perverts and C2C. I think there's a vast difference between one of your boys, or someone in your crew, lending you a hand or even brainstroming with you on some ideas...or, shit...the whole fucking routine, and what you do. You have folks paying you to do what should be their work.

 

And yes, I've stopped watching, or frankly...even giving a shit about the DMCs. Because of what I consider to be DJ laziness and homoginized sounding routines. Its been like this since I saw the Boston regionals in 2004.

 

[Le jad]

OK, so you don't understand what really happens with this working process, and even if you would understand it you would stick on your position... wich should make the rules. But you don't care anymore about the DMC. I don't know who is the clown.

 

Why do you say "your boys"? I have a son, the people I work with can be some friends, or people that I don't know, they are not "my boys".

 

You're on a message board. On this message board some people explain some scratch combos with videos, and even decompose the combos with some plans. Exchange ideas or points of view. Most people who battle have some people around them, giving ideas, DJs ask their friends and other turntablists to give their points of view before a battle. When one of the friend push him more and more and give him some ideas, it doesn't means this DJ is lazy.

 

If you hate the DMC, and don't care about it, and if you don't watch it, how can you say "it's plain and simple". You talk about something you don't know. Using your own dogma. And your dogma should make the rule.

[dissonance]

I think you're helping folks take shortcuts. And your post in the DMC prediction thread is proof positive.

[Le jad]

You don't like the DMC, but you read the prediction thread... there's something I don't understand.

In the thread you mention, I said I worked for 5 guys. As for 2 of them I did only mastering, I did not help more than any sound ingeneer. So there's 3 left. One didn't pay all he had to. He won't use my bad work (but we never know), I didn't create his routines, i just used technical producer skills to make the sound better, drum kits, and a few arrangements. So there's 2 left. For 1 of the 2 I did most of the creation, as he requested it a lot, but he recreated all the patterns, and many things I explained already in this thread. With the other guy He had some different productions by me and another producer, and he also sampled 4 songs he digged. So for all his routine, he digged the songs before, then worked his patterns etc. And in the end I worked on some technical stuff like mastering, sidechains...

 

You completely over estimate what is working with a producer. You don't take in account that exchanging, sharing between turntablists and producers is a very nice experiences, and that it can open doors for the futur. You don't think at all about all the pressure of the competition and how it's entertaining to do the best for turntablists as a producer, as they are full of pressure and stress. They can become much more creative working this way, and pushing their skills more and more There's other motivations than make routines easy, simple, etc. That's not the goal.

 

Continue to use your own dogma as a straight "rule". Talk about police or shit like this if you want. On my side I don't use dogmas, I do something that should not be a rule, that is about passion, sharing... of course I ask some payments. If I would not ask to get paid, i could not work so much for turntablists, I would have to make more money with other projects that are not about passion.

[dissonance]

just cause I don't follow it...or give a shit, doesn't mean I can't have an opinion on it.

 

at this point....your participation can't fuck up the DMCs anymore than they already are....

 

enjoy the money.

[djdiggla]

@Steve. Ur right. It defo is lame as I've said all along. I think it's whack as fuck, actually. But it's impossible to police so there shouldn't be points deducted because it would just be a witch hunt. If you have a proper way to police it then I'd support it but otherwise if people want to be whack then let them. They have to live with their fake ass selves every day.

 

As far as the precedent. It's just like case law or any tradition. It's an established practice. Or should we be vacating Raida's world title because doc gave him half his routine? I personally think that's a little different but still essentially the same.

[Guest broke]

I'm surprised that you're co-signing wackness,

 

WAIT WHAT

 

YOU'RE SURPRISED THAT THE MAN WHO AKSED "WHAT ARE SOME GOOD DRUM BREAKS COMPILATIONS" IS CO-SIGNING WACKNESS?! NOT ONLY CAN HE NOT BE ARSED DIGGING FOR BREAKS, HE CAN'T EVEN BE ARSED DIGGING FOR BREAKS COMPILATIONS AND INSTEAD JUST POSTS ON A FORUM. DO I NEED TO BREAK IT DOWN EVEN MORE FOR YOU?

[Vekked]

I'm surprised that you're co-signing wackness,

 

WAIT WHAT

 

YOU'RE SURPRISED THAT THE MAN WHO AKSED "WHAT ARE SOME GOOD DRUM BREAKS COMPILATIONS" IS CO-SIGNING WACKNESS?! NOT ONLY CAN HE NOT BE ARSED DIGGING FOR BREAKS, HE CAN'T EVEN BE ARSED DIGGING FOR BREAKS COMPILATIONS AND INSTEAD JUST POSTS ON A FORUM. DO I NEED TO BREAK IT DOWN EVEN MORE FOR YOU?

 

S0NNED!

[Vekked]

If somebody ask me to create 100%, it's rare to have the routine done, everything done and sent into a zip file lol

 

Perhaps I've lost my grasp of the English language here, but saying "it's rare" means it happens, but not very often. If he never created 100% routines, he would surely have said "I would never 100% create a routine"?

 

You realize Jad's not a turntablist though right? (afaik, if he is then it changes my point, lol)

 

It's not like he's Rafik or someone charging to send you completed routines to use. When Jad makes 100% of a routine, it means he's making 100% of the music, samples, beats. etc. The person he sends it to still has to create the actual routine as far as composing the scratching, juggling, etc. It's pretty far from the "cover version" that you're picturing.

 

I guess an analogy would be entering a live mpc battle and instead of digging for your own samples, you pay someone to give you some and then you make a beat out of it. Like paying for a digger or something.

 

Now I don't think it's cool, and it's not something I'd do, but I don't think it's something that should be penalized. I guess if I had to summarize my view in 1 line it'd be this:

 

Wackness penalizes itself, it doesn't need to be penalized formally.

 

Like I was saying with the "performance enhancing" thing you were saying. I don't really think it is performance enhancing. In theory some champ DJ could make an amazing routine for you to cover, but the only guys who could cover it as well and make it a winning routine are guys with the capability of winning already (see: 0.01% of DJs entering). If I was told I was being put up against someone who had 100% of their routine made by someone else I'd be pretty stoked because there's no chance that routine's actually good. It goes without saying that if someone's not even putting time in to make their own routine, they're not putting time into getting world class skills. If Jad's making money off of suckers who don't have a chance either way then more power to him. Their entire frame of mind isn't going to lead to them winning even if they made everything themselves.

[dissonance]

It's not like he's Rafik or someone charging to send you completed routines to use. When Jad makes 100% of a routine, it means he's making 100% of the music, samples, beats. etc. The person he sends it to still has to create the actual routine as far as composing the scratching, juggling, etc. It's pretty far from the "cover version" that you're picturing.

 

I gather that he's sending approved styles of music; nuggets of breaks/drums/synth tones; or loops of shit....meeting the end user's desires...or else he doesn't get paid. I think the aforementioned analogy of painting by numbers is very apropos.

 

after considering this a bit more - if you're hitting buttons...you're not dj'ing anymore. I might go as far as saying that if you're not playing records..."Blam!!! You're not dj'ing."

 

It goes without saying that if someone's not even putting time in to make their own routine, they're not putting time into getting world class skills. If Jad's making money off of suckers who don't have a chance either way then more power to him. Their entire frame of mind isn't going to lead to them winning even if they made everything themselves.

 

fair play.

[Le jad]

enjoy the money.

Thanks. But if I go back to work in a restaurant or in a car renting office, or really shity hard jobs, i will earn more money than what i earn actualy with turntablists. I earn, doing this, less than the minimum salary in france, so... f...you.

 

As I think since the beginning, money is a part of what upset people in this game. So nobody ask a webmaster to make his website. He can give all the plans to the webmaster, but the webmaster has the technic to do it. And he can also exchange ideas, etc. I would feel shame if for my website i would just have said "do a website, and i pay you". But I was happy to have a friend who could technicaly do it and bring ideas. I don't want to learn right now how to do it.

 

The DMCs are fucked up, yes maybe, but I mentionned the way CCF works and other options for batttling, I think you don't give a fuck about it and you just don't care about all this working process that you don't know. I just read a "bit" of hate bbetween your lines. Is it a place here where people just use their own "logos" to fight for a point of view (without knowing what they are talking about), or is it a place for debate and maybe learn a bit more than the hate coming from ignorance.

 

I've been reading your blog Dissonance, and was estonished you can have such a regard concerning Iran and Syria, with strong arguments and I agree with most of them. And your arguments are exactly against the general "logos" of medias, and dogmas of freedom. So you have a brain and you can have a view about complex situations but here, you use an opinion without searching how things work (you would say on your blog that this way of thinking is bullshit, won't you?).

 

Sorry to go off this topic sometimes but what I read is pretty agressive and hatefull. On my side I completely understand that it can be upseting, that this way of working is obvious, if we don't know what it's really about.

 

Thanks Vekked you bring much more arguments and reflexion. I think you understand a part of what I do - and other producer do, Ii hope so.

 

As I already said it with different words:

"Wackness penalizes itself, it doesn't need to be penalized formally."

 

Rafik would have win, like Netik, without knowing me. People who think they "know" should ask themself why did they want to work with me. And why other turntablists work with some producers sometime.

[arkei]

Sorry to go off this topic sometimes but what I read is pretty agressive and hatefull. On my side I completely understand that it can be upseting, that this way of working is obvious, if we don't know what it's really about.

 

It just honest opinions Jad.

 

When Raida got the "Chief Rocka" from Sinista, it was because they were brothers and Sinista wanted Raida to win. I don't think Raida was paying for that. He was repping the X also. These tribal connections count more for me than a business relations, which turns out to be friendly during/at the end of the process.

[Le jad]

Paying, paying, paying... but people here talk about asking another person for a routine. This was the case. He didn't create the routine. This should be worst that being helped to create a routine!

But it's not a problem, because it was a part of the hip hop attitude or something?

Did all the public knows about it? when I talk about it, many people discover this. They say, most of them "i can't believe what you say".

 

Buisness relation, in my way of working is not: you pay, i work, goodbye. You feel it as something bad because there's the world money into it, but when it was not about money, like I explained it in this thread (and I still work for free for my friends), there was the same kind of beef about the fact that turntablist don't create everything from zero.

[dissonance]

I don't hate you, Jad.

 

I've just got an opinion about this.

[Steve]

Nobody expects every DJ to make their routine in 100% isolation with no input from anyone, but what you're doing crosses the line.

 

Look at these 2 scenarios for instance: -

 

1. Vekked is making a mixtape of old school rap. He PMs me and asks for suggestions on songs to use. I suggestion a few and I suggest some artists he could look at. He then makes the mix and in the mix, he's used some of the songs/artists I suggested.

 

2. Vekked is making a mixtape of old school rap. He PMs me and asks for help. I send him 20 MP3s of songs and say "play them in this order" and I include samples and say "put this one here, this one here, this one here" etc. Vekked still does the scratching and juggling, but is the finished mix all his? Or is he just painting by numbers?

 

To me, 1 is fine, but 2 is crossing the line. Lots of DJs ask for input on their work, but how much assistance they're getting is key.

 

Mastering I can understand, because that's a technical skill, not a creative one. I'm 42 with beaten up ears and tinnitus, I have shitty speakers and fuck all knowledge of mastering. If the circumstances demanded it, I would pay someone to master a mix for me, but the creative part - the important part - is still all me.

[Le jad]

I don't hate, I've been hated since years, I don't feel hurt or something. Sometime I'm tired but I try ton continue to debate. As I always learn from other people in debates. My only problem concrens opinions which becomes dogmas (i don't know if the translation from french to english of "dogme" means the same). Like i use to say that some people feel hip hop or turntablism as an imanence, but can't describe it. But they say there's a good way to do, a bad way to do.

 

I try to understand all opinions, I would be the first happy to see different battles for turntabliists (who like to compete) to express different views about battling (like CCF and others scratch battles). It may conciliate people together. I think that the DMC "domination" is something which makes debates not really clear.

[neks]

I think the dj who asks for a routine written and produced by somebody else is to be blamed, much more than the guy who is doing the work, if not instead. It's a little easy to blame it all on the producer just because he's the known part of the equation. Also I read it as he's being compensated, not straight up paid for.

 

Also I'd be happy if I could do Unkut's routine just because somebody sent me the files to work with my DVS. I don't think it's that easy either.

 

ps: also Le Jad I miss reading your articles on Hand Control

[Le jad]

Steve,

Your example is still the same in the end. You stick on a certain view about what is a collaboration between a turntabliist and a producer. As already said: there's a lot way to collaborate. Now if you have to pay for a mastering, nobody will hate at you, but some people will say you lost your money as mastering, even without hearing what you do, is the easiest thing on earth... it never ends.

I can't explain more, if you stick on your first opinion, and if I was clear enough, it means I do something bad to your eyes. Ii tried to debate and explain the positive things, etc. I can't do more.

Nobody will come here and say "i worked with jad and you're wrong...". But this would be a better debate.

I think I was honest since the beginning. If we can't understand each other, or if we never agree on a part of what we talk about, i won't go on 100 pages (BTW, nobody asked me to do it).