Having someone else create your DMC routine.....

[Steve]

Should this count against you in the competition? Obviously, it's pretty much impossible to know if someone has created their own routine or not, but isn't creating a routine also supposed to be part of the skill of being a battle DJ?

[Chris]

Yeah I think it's kinda wack, but no offence to le jad. I think what he does with djs is actually cool and has a place as some kind of team thing, but it doesn't really have a place in dmc or other solo comps.

[djnumnuts]

You are kidding?? That just bullshit if people are makeing up sets for other people la jad admitted he has ??

[Vekked]

I don't think it should count against you. It's not like the routine is being created fully by someone else and you're just performing it, the music is being created by someone else and you're making a routine with the music (for the most part). Assuming it's just the music that's being created, I don't think it should be a factor in a DJ battle. The only thing that should matter is the DJing and the aspects of DJing. I don't think track selection should matter outside of: how they're using the music, how original the music is, how it works together with the other stuff they're using, as opposed to how much someone likes a certain style of music.

 

I guess there are cases where routines are composed by someone else a bit more than just the music that's being used, and I think still it shouldn't directly count against you, but I think indirectly it does. It's not like someone who's mediocre could get someone to make them a really amazing routine, and then they could pull it off and be really amazing... it doesn't work like that. If they're mediocre, their set isn't going to be much more than mediocre. It's the complexity and composition of your routines that suffer when you're relying on someone else to make them for you, so it's counting against you in the sense that your patterns and technique aren't as good as they could be because the routines are too production driven.

 

I'm speaking from a theory standpoint here... in reality it seems like some judges can't really distinguish the difference between a 3/10 juggle and a 7/10 juggle, or a 6/10 juggle and a 9/10 juggle, and some judges can't distinguish from a 6/10 scratcher with good production and an 8/10 scratcher without a heavily produced set or something. So certain sets that should get a lower score because they're weaker from a DJing perspective don't because the judges aren't capable enough of distinguishing these things... only solution is to get better judges.

[Steve]

It doesn't seem to me that Le Jad (as he's the main example) is just creating music for other people to use.

 

And the reason I think it should count against you is because being technically good at scratching/juggling doesn't necessarily mean that you have a great depth of music/sample knowledge, nor does it necessarily mean that you are very creative nor original. If someone else is heavily involved in the creation of the routine, it's not really yours. It's like someone entering a singer/songwriter comp using a song written by their mate.

[Vekked]

It doesn't seem to me that Le Jad (as he's the main example) is just creating music for other people to use.

 

And the reason I think it should count against you is because being technically good at scratching/juggling doesn't necessarily mean that you have a great depth of music/sample knowledge, nor does it necessarily mean that you are very creative nor original. If someone else is heavily involved in the creation of the routine, it's not really yours. It's like someone entering a singer/songwriter comp using a song written by their mate.

 

He's not doing the DJing though, and it's a DJ battle which focuses mostly on how good one DJ is compared to another. Is Le Jad's work making DJs better than other DJs? I would argue no, but I think the routine might sound more pleasing from a listener's perspective because it's cleaner and the transitions are perhaps smoother than they would be otherwise.

 

I don't think the singer/songwriter comp analogy is accurate. I think a better analogy is a guitar solo comp or something to determine the best guitarist. Say they have to compose a 6 minute guitar solo, and they get their buddy to help them who has a really good ear for music but isn't a guitarist at all. Although it might enhance his performance, and maybe sound better to casual listeners/non-guitarists, it's not really going to make them a better guitarist and will probably only help them a little bit.

 

...To take the analogy further it could even hinder them by causing the guitarist to do less intense guitar work in favor of a smoother sound for the listener (or in the DJ battle case, many DJs do really watered down juggles in favor of being cleaner... which should hurt their score in theory).

[Chris]

Well I think the issue is that digging's traditionally a huge factor in a dj's skillset. Things got skewed when battle breaks started making the rounds which makes the line really blurred, but if you're not digging the sounds for your own routine it changes everything. I think if we're going analogies it's songwriter and producer in the proper sense of the words, when I work(ed) with emcees and singers I coached them on how to rock the beats and made them do take after take until it was right, even sometimes having input on cadence and lyrics. That made us a team, and there's nothing wrong with being a team. it's just that the dmc has traditionally been a solo event.

 

The other thing is fake cuts etc that line up and fill out parts of a routine on the record, which I really do think crosses the line.

[Steve]

It doesn't seem to me that Le Jad (as he's the main example) is just creating music for other people to use.

 

And the reason I think it should count against you is because being technically good at scratching/juggling doesn't necessarily mean that you have a great depth of music/sample knowledge, nor does it necessarily mean that you are very creative nor original. If someone else is heavily involved in the creation of the routine, it's not really yours. It's like someone entering a singer/songwriter comp using a song written by their mate.

 

He's not doing the DJing though, and it's a DJ battle which focuses mostly on how good one DJ is compared to another.

 

But being a DJ also involves selecting tracks and samples and arranging them in a particular way. Or do we forget that part when comparing them in the DMC? If that's the case, just give people the tracks they have to use and vote based solely on juggling and scratching.

 

This isn't really like a mate listening to a guitar solo and saying "I would change that bit cos I don't like it". People are paying Le Jad money to help create their routines. It's a service for battle DJs.

[Vekked]

But being a DJ also involves selecting tracks and samples and arranging them in a particular way. Or do we forget that part when comparing them in the DMC? If that's the case, just give people the tracks they have to use and vote based solely on juggling and scratching.

 

This isn't really like a mate listening to a guitar solo and saying "I would change that bit cos I don't like it". People are paying Le Jad money to help create their routines. It's a service for battle DJs.

 

Obviously track selection, routine arrangement, and other compositional elements are all skills of a DJ, but I distinguish composition from a DJ perspective from composition from a production perspective. If you actually work out a transition between 2 tracks whether it be with trick mixing, blending, or juggling, it should count towards your score, whereas if the tracks change by themselves because the were produced that way it shouldn't, because that doesn't have anything to do with skilled DJing.

 

I would have a problem with it if it actually resulted in what you're saying (an injection of creativity and track selection for technical skilled DJs who don't have those qualities), but I don't really think it's giving anyone a significant edge that didn't already have it, do you?

 

If anything the problem isn't people helping with custom routines, it's judges that can't tell apart skill levels of different DJs and judge just on the sound/end result instead of what's actually being done.

[jopa.]

i dunno... beavo was technically better than myself- tighter, cleaner, better in both scratching and juggling- but i was a little more creative and definitely more knowledgeable about music. i help him build his routine when he was battling; i helped pick out tracks and dug samples for him... we were friends and i wanted him to do better than i could. i didnt feel like it was our set... i just felt like i helped my friend with his. i guess its different if colleagues rather than friends seek you out to help work on their sets, but who knows really.

[Steve]

I don't really think it's giving anyone a significant edge that didn't already have it, do you?

 

I'm not sure. It's kinda like asking me what a singer who never writes their own songs would be like if they wrote their own songs. Perhaps a DJ's routine would be noticeably worse. Perhaps when judging is tight, that would make the difference between win and lose.

 

And some judges are clearly judging based on the composition of the overall routine - that's why you get shafted by some judges, cos other DJs had more polished sounding "produced" routines than yours, even if their skills weren't as good. So while you could argue that judging is the issue, if judges are looking for polished, produced routines, having DJs pay to get a more polished and produced routine than they could make themselves is making it even worse for people like you.

 

@Jopa - It's unrealistic to expect every DJ to make their set with no outside influence at all, but there's a difference between a mate saying "this sample would work better here" and being a battle routine producer/arranger for hire.

[jopa.]

yeah... i agree. ive never heard of that until now, which is why i just said "who knows?" both you and vekked made some pretty valid points... im on the fence and have decided my opinion doesnt matter any ways because i could never hack it in the battle world. heh.

[Vekked]

I'm not sure. It's kinda like asking me what a singer who never writes their own songs would be like if they wrote their own songs. Perhaps a DJ's routine would be noticeably worse. Perhaps when judging is tight, that would make the difference between win and lose.

 

And some judges are clearly judging based on the composition of the overall routine - that's why you get shafted by some judges, cos other DJs had more polished sounding "produced" routines than yours, even if their skills weren't as good. So while you could argue that judging is the issue, if judges are looking for polished, produced routines, having DJs pay to get a more polished and produced routine than they could make themselves is making it even worse for people like you.

 

Probably the most well known examples of Le Jad's work are with Rafik, Netik, and Unkut. Pretty much all of them were the best in their given competitions skill-wise, regardless of the custom produced routines. You also have a bunch of other examples of guys who were not the best skill-wise who had routines produced by him.

 

I agree some judges are judging on overall sound, and it can work against routines made in a traditional fashion, but I still think that just comes down to poor judging. The fact that they do judge on that doesn't mean they should. Judging on that criteria gives good producers in general an edge over good DJs, so the issue would exist whether or not there was outside help as long as there are DJs who know how to produce.

[Steve]

I'm surprised that you're co-signing wackness, especially as you give routines from 3 well respected DJs as "examples of Le Jad's work". Whether those 3 DJs were the best in the competition skills-wise (in terms of more technical skills like scratching/juggling) is irrelevant to whether having someone else produce/create your routine is bullshit or not, plus creating the routine is also part of the skill - one that judges favour to varying degrees with some giving it a heavy emphasis.

 

If you're judging a set, you have to take into account the overall composition/production qualities IMO. You can't ignore that altogether and I think your criticism of some judges is based on them placing too much emphasis on that over other things, but unless you are saying that they should disregard the composition/production aspect completely, then I cannot see how you can think that paying some guy to arrange/produce your set is anything other than wack.

[mattnice]

Ve

[Vekked]

I'm surprised that you're co-signing wackness, especially as you give routines from 3 well respected DJs as "examples of Le Jad's work".

 

Just because I don't think it should be punished doesn't mean I cosign it. That's like saying I cosign racism if I don't agree with racism being censored.

 

If you're judging a set, you have to take into account the overall composition/production qualities IMO. You can't ignore that altogether and I think your criticism of some judges is based on them placing too much emphasis on that over other things, but unless you are saying that they should disregard the composition/production aspect completely,

 

Yea that's basically what I'm saying. There's a line between things that are elements of DJing and things that aren't. How well your set is produced doesn't have to do with DJing, so the only way that it ought to affect the judges is insofar as it affects your DJing abilities.

 

I think in practice that there are certain judges who will give people higher scores for subjective stuff like how pleasing something sounds without taking into consideration how pleasing the DJing sounds. Like my example with transitions between songs... it might sound better to have a pre-recorded transition but I think that it should not be given any sort of score.

 

then I cannot see how you can think that paying some guy to arrange/produce your set is anything other than wack.

 

My take is kinda that most of the guys winning with those sets were the best anyways, and it probably didn't change much... most of the other guys losing with those sets were not the best and would lose anyways, lol. Obviously I don't really like the direction those kind of sets are going, because I think it's causing guys to focus too much on arranging things and not as much on what I see as the actual artform of DJing/turntablism/battling. I just think it'll come back around eventually (hopefully). My plan is to hopefully get to the point where I have some sort of influence on it... ideally by getting good enough and winning some bigger battles one day.

[Steve]

Just because I don't think it should be punished doesn't mean I cosign it. That's like saying I cosign racism if I don't agree with racism being censored.

 

Hmmm, not really. You said "I don't think it should count against you", so you don't think there should be any penalty if a DJ pays someone else to create their routine. Perhaps "co-signing" was the wrong term, but you are saying that it's acceptable to you if people do that. With racism, you can make arguments for why free speech shouldn't be limited in any way - and solid arguments too - but that doesn't apply here at all.

 

How well your set is produced doesn't have to do with DJing

 

I would disagree with that. Of course it's a part of DJing. If you take that element out, you go back to the old days where a DJ slapped on 2 copies of something, did their thing for 90 seconds, then just put on the next track and slammed the fader over - rinse and repeat. The competition is better because people are putting more thought into the overall construction of their sets, including how they flow from one section to the next. Doing that shouldn't be a replacement for other skills though, and it shouldn't be seen as the most important skill - there are definitely issues with the judging right now when it comes to that IMO.

 

My take is kinda that most of the guys winning with those sets were the best anyways, and it probably didn't change much...

 

I dunno man. I don't even see that as relevant. It's like saying "Mike Tyson took performance enhancing drugs for that fight, but he'd have won anyway". It's not what the essence of battling is about. I'm sure Roc Raida (RIP) had input from the other DJs he knew when it came to creating his DMC routines, but that's a world apart from him paying someone to make them for him. It's crossing the line.

[ELGEE]

i was thinking about this just yesterday after reading what jad said in the dmc thread,

im not agaisnt it coz arnt all juggles made from someone elses production?

 

its kinda the same as getting someone to make beats to rap over isnt it?

 

if i was skilled enough to do justice to something jad or peeps like the prototypes or noisia

made for me i would love it.

 

not all peeps have the production skills to make what they have in their head,

but its a skill to make a routine from something that come from somebody elses head tho.

all jad does is make the lego bricks, its down to you to make what you want from it,

and then 10 others do 10 different things with the same shit. i think thats sick.

 

i know lig one is one half of the bluescreens and make the sickest dnb, would love to see him

do a team thing with their production.

[Steve]

im not agaisnt it coz arnt all juggles made from someone elses production?

 

It's about actually arranging/producing the set itself to some degree - not the songs being used. If Le Jad was being paid to send someone a few tracks to use, then fine. AFAIK, that's not what he's doing though.

 

its kinda the same as getting someone to make beats to rap over isnt it?

 

Right, but if there was a "make a hip-hop song" competition where you had to make the whole track yourself, would you think it was fair if I paid a professional producer to make the beat for me? What if I paid an MC to write my lyrics? I'm not making the song myself. Outside of a competition, fine, but in a competition that's fucking lame.

 

not all peeps have the production skills to make what they have in their head

 

My response to that would be - tough luck. If you can't come up with a routine without paying someone to help you, don't enter.

[amatic]

to me its just about the best person on a set of turntables at scratching and juggling.

if someone like jad makes a routine for you what does it matter..if your shit your shit!

if you gave a wack dj a produced set he wouldnt be able to do anything with it.

i know first hand of this as i reguard myself as quite a decent dj(at least scratch wise) and have been given the routines/productions from a dj in this years worlds..and i cant do very much with it at all.

i dont think it matters really

[Vekked]

Hmmm, not really. You said "I don't think it should count against you", so you don't think there should be any penalty if a DJ pays someone else to create their routine. Perhaps "co-signing" was the wrong term, but you are saying that it's acceptable to you if people do that. With racism, you can make arguments for why free speech shouldn't be limited in any way - and solid arguments too - but that doesn't apply here at all.

 

I dunno man. I don't even see that as relevant. It's like saying "Mike Tyson took performance enhancing drugs for that fight, but he'd have won anyway". It's not what the essence of battling is about.

 

Not really saying "Mike Tyson took performance enhancing drugs for that fight, but he'd have won anyways" so much as "Mike Tyson paid $3000 for his gold trunks instead of wearing his $50 black trunks, and won, which he would have done either way"... aka my point is that it's not really performance enhancing... there isn't examples of DJs doing far better than they would otherwise. That's my response to both of the above, is basically that I find it acceptable because I don't really see it as an advantage in making a better routine. I haven't really seen DJs that made a produced routine that was far better than anything they could have made otherwise.

 

In other words, I don't really like produced routines because I don't find them as skillful as other routines (mainly when it comes to juggling). I don't really think they make for better routines. So why would I think there should be a penalty?

 

I would disagree with that. Of course it's a part of DJing. If you take that element out, you go back to the old days where a DJ slapped on 2 copies of something, did their thing for 90 seconds, then just put on the next track and slammed the fader over - rinse and repeat. The competition is better because people are putting more thought into the overall construction of their sets, including how they flow from one section to the next.

 

I think we're thinking of different things with the word "production", I mean like audio editting and sound production on computer. Obv all the Allies, Kentaro, old Vajra, etc made extremely well constructed sets without any production. I still don't think those sets have been surpassed in the 6 min format.

[ELGEE]

i get ya, and kinda agree but disagree at the same time.

 

dmc's ornt really about the production to, its about skills on the decks,

so what ever sounds you choose doesnt or shouldnt matter.

 

i dont feel you should be judged on the music tho, but what you do with it.

but then thats a strange situation as and kinda fucks itself over coz

you cant have one without the other.

if you get what im trying to say in my sniffed up way of explaining things.

 

fuck i really dont know where i stand on this, i love so many oldskool pre

serato le jad self production routines but the i love so many pre made routines too.

 

i guesse its the flow and clean transitions of the newish shit, and the techy "euro" dnb

sound that i like as ive made dnb for years,

 

but i also love it when i see a juggle with something gash like an old 80's inxs record.

 

i like what i like.

 

one thing i do hate tho is the whole fill in the gaps juggles like what "no disrespect intended as he is my pal" jfb does,

its fun but its not skillfull.

[Steve]

aka my point is that it's not really performance enhancing...

 

So you don't think that any of the judges are favouring production of sets over skills then? Or do you? I'm not sure any more.

 

You can't really say "there's no examples of DJs doing far better than they would otherwise" because you don't know what their sets would have been like "otherwise" or whether that would have affected the outcome. If it's "all about skills that can't be bought" (which it's clearly not, but let's go with that), then why would anyone in their right mind pay someone money to help with the production/arrangement of their routine? It's not going to affect the outcome, but I'll pay anyway???

 

I think we're thinking of different things with the word "production"

 

I'm using "production" to mean "how the routine is arranged". An old DJ Aladdin routine is an example of high skill level when it comes to scratching/juggling (for the time), but crap production/arrangement - but that's what every DJ was doing then in terms of production/arrangement so it didn't matter. You can't look at the way the DMC comp is being judged now and say that that no longer matters, cos it clearly does - and so it should. If 2 DJs were at the same skill level when it comes to scratching/juggling, but one has put together a better arranged/produced set, then I would give the latter DJ the win. I wouldn't say "they're both the same".

 

dmc's ornt really about the production to, its about skills on the decks,

so what ever sounds you choose doesnt or shouldnt matter.

 

If that was true then the best way to fairly judge the competition would be to have every DJ use the same selection of tracks/samples. The sounds you choose don't matter, so we've chosen them for you to level the playing field - let's see what skills you have. I don't agree with that though.

[ELGEE]

 

 

dmc's ornt really about the production to, its about skills on the decks,

so what ever sounds you choose doesnt or shouldnt matter.

 

If that was true then the best way to fairly judge the competition would be to have every DJ use the same selection of tracks/samples. The sounds you choose don't matter, so we've chosen them for you to level the playing field - let's see what skills you have. I don't agree with that though.

 

i would love to see that happen, everone has the same tracks and see what peeps come with.

could get kinda boring tho.lol

 

the judging is the mad thing, you might like the beats and sound but the routine could be gash but you beat a dude with skills

with wack tunes.

 

imo this issue with production thing only really works and is really exceptable in the teams.

[Vekked]

So you don't think that any of the judges are favouring production of sets over skills then? Or do you? I'm not sure any more.

 

Yea I think some judges are swayed by production, but it still doesn't make it a better set... like I think it's usually unqualified judges who are more likely swayed.

 

You can't really say "there's no examples of DJs doing far better than they would otherwise" because you don't know what their sets would have been like "otherwise" or whether that would have affected the outcome.

 

Sure you can't know exactly what their routine would be like but you can see dudes made a certain quality of routine in the past and then a certain quality of routine that's produced by someone and it's not like it's worlds better or something, if it's better at all. Like Rafik had some sick stuff in his 2007 routine with Le Jad, but I think a lot of people would argue his routines from 04-06 were just as good or better. So in that sense you can say his 07 routine isn't any better than what he was already capable of doing. If, however, when he worked with Jad he put something together superior to anything he'd ever done up to that point it would be different.

 

I'm using "production" to mean "how the routine is arranged". An old DJ Aladdin routine is an example of high skill level when it comes to scratching/juggling (for the time), but crap production/arrangement - but that's what every DJ was doing then in terms of production/arrangement so it didn't matter. You can't look at the way the DMC comp is being judged now and say that that no longer matters, cos it clearly does - and so it should. If 2 DJs were at the same skill level when it comes to scratching/juggling, but one has put together a better arranged/produced set, then I would give the latter DJ the win. I wouldn't say "they're both the same".

 

Ok yea then we're talking about different things... I'm not disagreeing with what you just said. In fact I think I said in this thread already that I think composition/arrangement of a set matters but I distinguish between composition/arrangement done by DJing skill and composition/arrangement done by audio editting. The manual transition vs. the pre-recorded one.

 

dmc's ornt really about the production to, its about skills on the decks,

so what ever sounds you choose doesnt or shouldnt matter.

 

If that was true then the best way to fairly judge the competition would be to have every DJ use the same selection of tracks/samples. The sounds you choose don't matter, so we've chosen them for you to level the playing field - let's see what skills you have. I don't agree with that though.

 

I think track/sample selection should still matter, but only as far as how original or how well it's used, not how subjectively "good" the songs are. I dunno, is it too much to ask that a DJ battle be judged on DJing and not other stuff?