Deft Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 Well I almost got to the bottom of what may or may not be the definition of a "brolic arm". After that, I'm out. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Symatic Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 is it ok to pre produce something, and get it pressed onto vinyl (ie. not a dub) ? cos you could argue thats what Q did in 91 cos he used battle breaks him and his crew produced to make a routine. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDDtDUs4wkM is that pre producing? can it be called hip hop? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ Rock Well Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 Who knows what 'the rules' are? When hip hop started the general ethos seemed to be make whatever you can out of whatever you've got. But then the funsucking nerdy purists got involved. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djdiggla Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 I like when Pekked says "abouuut" Also, Rob was one of my heroes but he's really disappointed me more and more over in recent years. It's been clear when he's come to town that he's mad to be lesser known now. And that anger is coming out in a really lame way attacking some of the few legit purveyors of the art. His skill set is stuck in a time period--that's just fact and he would rather tear down others than up himself. Is he dropping regular videos? Nope. Is he dropping mixes? Nope. Instead he's trying to pawn off old dead stock garbage on kickstarter. He's stagnant. It's a real same but true. But I guess he thinks he's owed something. It's just not that way in the real world. He is still one of my favorite jugglers but you can't ride the X-men and a couple juggle routines for your entire life and what's more it's really lame to diss other people especially when the routine isn't that different than what he was doing with the X-men. Basically you're dissing yourself. I didn't LOVE that routine Fly and Netik did but I'm sure happy to see a new video. I also think it's pretty whack for a "legend" to diss a World DMC champ. If he wants to talk about being authentic then get yourself a DMC world or even USA title then come back. Really disappointed in his pettiness. Poor form. EDIT: Also Fly's response vid was dope. Rob's was nice too but sloppy by compariason and... fuck I'll just say it--basically embodied everything that killed beat juggling. Snore fest. Droning on. And then the muscle flex? Foreal? :facepalm: is it ok to pre produce something, and get it pressed onto vinyl (ie. not a dub) ? cos you could argue thats what Q did in 91 cos he used battle breaks him and his crew produced to make a routine. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDDtDUs4wkM is that pre producing? can it be called hip hop? That was the argument at the time, right? It's CHEATING to use dubs or battle records! The sky is falling!! So stupid. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GNOD Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 If we want to go way back, I have seen people disqualified from DMCs for using Big Apple Productions in their set! I dunno - I saw the Netik / Fly vid and uts entertainment to sell tix for their tour. I don't think it was for their peers (I am not saying I am one!) to judge and having seen it be judged, I feel it was unfair.. Seeing how the argument is turning into an EU v US row and the even crazier subject of appropriation being thrown in is just stupid. Hip hop is an INCLUSIVE culture and face it, guys from Europe will never sound like they are from South Bronx, so Dj is the one "discipline" where we can be on an equal footing. Finally, although most of my influences are hip hop djs / tablists etc, there was also the influences from Latin Rascals, Les Adams, those crazy German 80's cut and pasters. Europe absorbed a lot from everywhere and its different and relevant. It's just stupid to see where this is elevating to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jam Burglar Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 Believe it or not, I kind of think this "beef" is good for us. It's getting issues out on the table, it let's us hear Vekked say "aboot" a lot. I think it would be sweet if D-Styles jumped in and accused Netik and Fly of biting his "zoom zoom" sax routine. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phology Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 I also think the key word here is "tribute". Fly & Netik's video is a tribute to hip-hop, it's not claiming to the be "The Ultimate Hip-Hop Megamix Ever Vol1". It's simply a nod to the past blended with current techniques. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acts_One Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 The thread title to the Ruck and Ritchie 'beef' couldn't be any more fitting. "Man claims ownership of moving records backwards and forwards in a specific fashion" or in this case "Man claims ownership of HipHop and you must abide by these rules" 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jam Burglar Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 is it ok to pre produce something, and get it pressed onto vinyl (ie. not a dub) ? cos you could argue thats what Q did in 91 cos he used battle breaks him and his crew produced to make a routine. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDDtDUs4wkM is that pre producing? can it be called hip hop? I'd say it's mostly the same but not necessarily. If you press up vinyl just for the sole purpose of a single routine, then yeah (aside from the fact that the vinyl is more likely to skip) it's the same. But some people did some really dope and creative shit with other people's battle records. Klever comes to mind. If somebody came through with an all vinyl set that only used non-hip hop records and made it dope then I think that person should win over an equally good "produced" set. Most of my favorite moments in battling were ill flips. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest petesasqwax Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 I remember years ago going to the World's in London and seeing a Canadian dude (could be Pump) do a whole set with 2 recoeds: I think they were a James Brown record and a battle record. That shit was DOPE and really innovative on a lot of levels. On one level I felt like he should have got a lot more props for having done that, but then you could argue that it should be about doing whatever you want with whatever you've got available (as I've always felt it was). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeClockwork Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 (edited) Yeah, that was Pump. He used James Brown - The Payback and the Scratch Fetish record (I think). Edited February 17, 2016 by joeClockwork Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeClockwork Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Symatic Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 I know the routine but cant think who did it.... Its like hee haw breaks and big payback right? Yeah i dont think what q was doing in 91 was cheating, its more an open question.... Like he still rocked it, cabt be fucked with even if you wanna break it down to second by second criticism.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vekked Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDDtDUs4wkM is that pre producing? Naw that's different. Pressing your own beats or samples is completely fine. When people say "pre-produced" juggles, they mean ones with very little backspins where the patterns are quite simple and the edited version of the song is doing all the work. I guess another way to say it is, it's not about the sounds that they're arranging at all, it's that they're arranging techniques and specifically making things easier to achieve the same sound it would take much harder techniques to do. It's the equivalent to someone re-making one of Woody's melody routines by taking each note that he creates using pitching on the Controller One and reverse buttons and everything, but just puts each note in order in Ableton then baby scratches through them. Sure it might sound identical, and might even be cleaner than Woody's because you don't have to backspin quickly or deal with platter speed changes, but if you saw someone doing that, would you think "oh this sounds exactly like Woody's melody, it's just as dope!"? I don't think any DJ would think that. I think the reason it's an issue only for beat juggling is that it's way less developed than scratching as an art form, because it's newer and been studied less as a whole. It's super easy for even fairly beginner DJs to pick out someone making a scratch melody live like Woody vs. if someone just lined up the same melody in Ableton and baby scratched through it. But with beat juggling the truth is not many people on earth are even good enough to tell how much easier pre-produced juggles are... and most of the people who are good enough happen to be from the 90s era, and of the ones who speak out about it, many aren't the most articulate about why they don't like it, as we've seen. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Symatic Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 Ah you must have posted while i was typing... Thats the one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djdiggla Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDDtDUs4wkM is that pre producing?Naw that's different. Pressing your own beats or samples is completely fine. When people say "pre-produced" juggles, they mean ones with very little backspins where the patterns are quite simple and the edited version of the song is doing all the work. I guess another way to say it is, it's not about the sounds that they're arranging at all, it's that they're arranging techniques and specifically making things easier to achieve the same sound it would take much harder techniques to do. It's the equivalent to someone re-making one of Woody's melody routines by taking each note that he creates using pitching on the Controller One and reverse buttons and everything, but just puts each note in order in Ableton then baby scratches through them. Sure it might sound identical, and might even be cleaner than Woody's because you don't have to backspin quickly or deal with platter speed changes, but if you saw someone doing that, would you think "oh this sounds exactly like Woody's melody, it's just as dope!"? I don't think any DJ would think that. I think the reason it's an issue only for beat juggling is that it's way less developed than scratching as an art form, because it's newer and been studied less as a whole. It's super easy for even fairly beginner DJs to pick out someone making a scratch melody live like Woody vs. if someone just lined up the same melody in Ableton and baby scratched through it. But with beat juggling the truth is not many people on earth are even good enough to tell how much easier pre-produced juggles are... and most of the people who are good enough happen to be from the 90s era, and of the ones who speak out about it, many aren't the most articulate about why they don't like it, as we've seen. Ah, yeah. I know what you mean now. Yeah, those type of juggle sets are not very exciting. I always assumed it was done in order to get past that check box on the "well rounded" checklist since juggling has largely died out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vekked Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 Ah, yeah. I know what you mean now. Yeah, those type of juggle sets are not very exciting. I always assumed it was done in order to get past that check box on the "well rounded" checklist since juggling has largely died out. I think that's absolutely why it's done. You almost exclusively see guys who happen to be really good at scratching doing it, and usually to me it's them saying "well I guess I have to beat juggle... so I'll do this for a minute so I can get back to my scratching which I actually like". I would rather them just scratch for 6 minutes because that's what they're good at or do weird gimmick stuff instead, no one ever said you HAD to beat juggle in order to win. Look at Woody's winning Vestax routine, not a beat juggle in sight, but he varied his ideas enough to make it work. And not to toot my own horn, but for live DMC World set last year I didn't have a single "beat juggle" section of my routine, all of my beat juggling was incorporated into a scratch routine/feedback routine/something else. I did that on purpose too. I wanted to try and fit beat juggling in musically without being like "ok here's the token beat juggle section", because I think I agree that beat juggling itself needs to be updated but I don't agree that pre-production is the way to modernize it. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djdiggla Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 I would agree with that. It's always the worst part of a set. Adds nothing really. I always thought it would be a mistake not to do some sort of juggle but you're right--I'd much prefer seeing it integrated into scratching etc than sleepwalked through... I wouldn't say "miming" or whatever the criticism is but it's almost like it becomes one long body trick-visually appealing but not really necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vekked Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 I would agree with that. It's always the worst part of a set. Adds nothing really. I always thought it would be a mistake not to do some sort of juggle but you're right--I'd much prefer seeing it integrated into scratching etc than sleepwalked through... I wouldn't say "miming" or whatever the criticism is but it's almost like it becomes one long body trick-visually appealing but not really necessary. I really like beat juggling, but admittedly it's really difficult to incorporate a traditional "beat juggle" without there being a jarring amount of setup... like the typical "loop a beat for 8 bars" to set up the juggle is one of the worst things and a remnant of the vinyl days more than a musical choice. But nowadays people (including me sometimes ) STILL do it even though you don't have to a lot of times with DVS. No one actually likes the sound of progressively shorter loops of music for 20 seconds before the beginning of a juggle. But when beat juggling is done well and musically, however rare that is, I love it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest broke Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 You know, I'm wondering if Rob is just missing the mark because he's dancing around the issue of "authenticity" ("authenticity" being code for you're not real unless you're black or Hispanic and from NYC.) I wonder whether its more about Rob being pissed seeing some white European guys getting shine for a hip hop routine. Think about it, a black dude from Queens who came up on the heels of the founders is probably going to feel that the core is getting lost in translation more than any of us. If you look at the historical context of black music being pillaged I can see why he would be sensitive to that. So, I get that sentiment but he's got the wrong target by a mile. It's like he's trying to claim Netik and Fly are faking it. That's just missing the mark. Those guys have put in the work and paid their dues. It's just that hip hop does not translate to every different culture perfectly, so those guys doing "hip hop" is not going to have that same feel as an NYC or Philly DJ. But maybe that's a good thing! I think mastering the craft is not just learning the techniques and styles and trying build on it, but you have to be yourself to achieve true expression through music. I have to admit when I see Fly and Netik with hand gestures and head nods something just feels a little awkward there but they're doing THEIR thing and their skills are beyond question as far as I'm concerned. So Rob trying to go at their skills on the pre-production argument looks like misplaced anger to me. Not only misplaced as to what they are doing, but also misplaced as to who they are. Well said, JB I think Rob really does respect Fly and Netik, he can see the skills. He even made a point of acknowledging that in his initial rant (let's call it what it was). But like you said, JB, it seems like it's more motivated by frustration with two guys using edited tracks and getting 1.2 million views for a clip where they're just messing around, when he's still very much a proponent of the old school foundations but only getting a couple thousand views. So yeah it sort of seems a bit "kids these days!" which is fair enough... but, yes, totally misplaced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vekked Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 he's still very much a proponent of the old school foundations but only getting a couple thousand views. Yeeaaa, I think he deters a certain amount of younger DJs by telling them they might not be born with the funk... I don't think kids want to hear "no matter how hard you work, you might just not be born with the talent you need to be good at this". Not exactly a welcoming idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jam Burglar Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 So, I'm just going to put this out here ... is Rob "Rotten Apple"? The evidence is mounting. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arkei Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 Rob Swift should have sticked to calling out Kalkutta instead of this drama. But to each his own... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest petesasqwax Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 lol - I'm sure I remember Rotten Ap being nicer on the cut, though. No direspect intended to RS, but he's very much an "in the pocket" sort of cutter. Works really nicely in a hooks-for-vocal-tracks way or on the X-Men stuff, but Rotten Ap was more advanced than that (if memory serves) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ Rock Well Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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