The Disablists - 93 til Infinity routine video

[djfoly]

I've got no problem with button pushing really steve....

On the previous page you said that it's totally unnecessary and sounds shit.

 

I would agree that having limits in a DJ battle can make for a more interesting competition (and one that's easier to judge too - in fact, maybe that's the strongest reason for having limits), but the video posted in this thread isn't from a battle and I was talking generally. Also, if I was judging a battle I would take into account whether a DJ was flipping a sample like Woody does with his flutines routine, or whether they'd just pressed some notes in a particular order on a record and were just running through them.

 

Aye in the context of djing I think it does sound shit...well the kind that sounds like yyyyyyyyo yo yo yyyyyyy yo yo I just don't see how that adds anything except for an annoying noise. Also that dial that makes a sample repeat and you can speed it up all these things are supposed to amazing but they sound out of place and really cheesy. I don't have a problem with buttons being used for triggering samples on a sampler though. Thats what I meant and I think you know it!

 

for triggering a sample during a very creative dj set I'd have no problem either, like if it made it easier to add something than having a sampler hooked up, which I think these new button pad things do. Trigering a sample, applying an effect, or even making a complex beat pattern (Which would be impossible on turntables) as part of a routine. I get that. But just pushing gangster button and following it with an explosion repeatedly is shit as far as im concerned.

 

GGGGGGGGGG GANGSTA GGG GANGSTA (BOOOOOM). Crowd goes 'oooooooooooooooooh' Not for me thanks!

 

This has nothing to do with the video above BTW which I've already said I enjoyed, obviously my least favourite part was the end but that said I didn't hate it and it did bring it up to date.

[Mike-L]

anyone heard of a track called "flash to the beat"? hiphop dj-ing and messing with drum machines has been around since the early days

 

as far as the cue point triggering on recent battle vids goes, i agree with foly that it can be corny ,this is partly down to the choice of sounds and for my taste the sounds most of these guys scratch with isnt much better. The MPC playing stuff has been around for years too - Roger Linn (mpc inventor) said this back in the 90's "I like to think of the MPC60 as the piano or violin of our time, and of you as an MPC60ist" .

In some respects it has had its own seperate development , Jeremy Ellis is keen to point out he's not a DJ for instance. The overlap is there if you regard them as complimentary hip hop instruments - different ways to get creative with records.

 

For me the mpc is for doing what you can't do with scratching. Scratch drumming for instance often has more of a percussive quality and lacks the punch of played or programmed drums - and thats to do with the nature of scratch drumming because the sound usually gets cut short and sliced up. The drums on phantasmogoria are an exception precisely because they are so sparsely scratched - clean kicks and snares are allowed to ring out for the full duration. .

 

I think for most turntablists its early days as far as incorporating this type of stuff - most of the mpc type stuff on the dmc online vids felt like it was done for the sake of it, and is pretty unsophisticated when you compare it to people like Jel who've been doing it for years - and genuinly make music when they play.

 

When i did my live stuff at the Qbert gig in london - it was nice to have some of the DMC folks encourage me to do the online thing - but i felt they kind of missed the point too.For me it was more about making some music , trying to squeeze the material into a "battle routine" would take the soul away from it. i think the battle routine format has some down sides- it forces judges to consider whats easily quantifiable (speed, complexity) over a more rounded approach that you might use norammly to consider someone playing "traditional instruments" etc. Because of this a lot of the "controllerist" ( i hate that word!) stuff is in danger of making all the same mistakes and producing really soulless pseudo music.

 

On the positive side I think I'm excited by some of the possibilities.e.g. Ive got a horn riff bit of one of my tracks that i recreate using both scratching and sample triggering. I trigger the long notes from my su10 but i can also play over these with scratch rhythms with shorter notes. There's probably other ways of intregrating this stuff too , rather than the "do some scratching... now do some cue button triggering" approach.

[Vekked]

Very well said Mike.

[djfoly]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jleKtOdh3E&feature=related

 

Here is an example of what I don't like. It would give the passer by the 'illusion' that the dj was using complex techniques when its the equipment that is doing all the work. There can be no doubt that this kind of stuff is on the increase. I think musically its poor, its not creative or technically pushing boundaries. I don't want to be too harsh on the guy but this is the sort of thing I really don't like and what I was on about earlier!

[Steve]

I don't see why it matters personally.

 

If it's a battle, there's a big visual element and you'd clearly be able to see what he's doing. The reason I don't like it is cos of the song he's using, which I don't like the sound of.

 

The only objection I have is when people are solely pushing buttons like he does at the end of that video and calling it "beat juggling", because it's not beat juggling. I can get beat juggling-type sounds by repeatedly clicking the play button at certain times in Winamp, but just cos it sounds a bit like it doesn't mean that it is it. Beat juggling is fucking hard. That kind of thing - not so much.

[djfoly]

yeah but what I mean is if you look at the beat juggling he does do its very simple even I could do it....but he supplements this by pressing loads of buttons at the end. Also there is just a different 'sound' to real beat juggling that no amount of buttons will be able to replace!

[Vekked]

IMO nothing he's doing in that video is beat juggling, lol. But yea I hear what foly's saying, if he used a hip-hop track or something you'd easily recognize he's doing nothing, but with this track it sound a bit like he's doing something.

[Steve]

But yea I hear what foly's saying, if he used a hip-hop track or something you'd easily recognize he's doing nothing, but with this track it sound a bit like he's doing something.

That isn't what he's saying though really, cos he's talking about pushing buttons, not the choice of track.

 

yeah but what I mean is if you look at the beat juggling he does do its very simple even I could do it....but he supplements this by pressing loads of buttons at the end.

But I don't see what's wrong with that, cos the whole thing doesn't sound very good to me, lol. It's not like anyone's claiming that routine is this or that. It is what it is. The juggling (while better than I could do) is basic and often not on time and the button pressing is pretty much the same. It wouldn't be any better if he just juggled. Even if you made the argument "he should forget that button pushing and work on his juggling more" I don't think it would work, cos it's not like that button pressing stuff takes a long time to learn as you just set some cue points and tap out a rhythmic pattern.

[Mike-L]

The apparent complexity in that video seems more about the rapid fire 16ths of the beat - a common criticism of most post-netik style juggling.

 

There's a new rucker video which is pretty cool, using cues to scratch remix "give it up" by marvin gay - it sounds dope, and couldn't be done with conventional juggling, or just with the buttons. The video is set to private now so i cant watch it or post it.

 

As far as technology that makes things easier - it's often the case that the end result of using them as "shortcuts" is inferior. e.g. Pioneer mixers have had a "transform" gating effect for years.The likes of James zabilea use it for "scratching". It has a machine like quality that you'd have to be a q-bert/cyborg combination to actually do it with your hands. But it lacks all the expressiveness and rhythmical control you'd get from a fader (its just on/off). Tech like that has not really changed peoples attitiude to "real" scratching. Don't forget too that improvements in fader technology has made things "easy" - but it opened up tons of creative possibilities at the same time.

 

Thinking of what started this conversation - rob swifts comments - its interesting to see him using Serato for his classic routine with the blow your head/PE sticker loop tone and breaking the beat down on the other deck. Doing that on digital genuinely does take something away - it seems so much more raw when it's done with the original records

[djfoly]

But yea I hear what foly's saying, if he used a hip-hop track or something you'd easily recognize he's doing nothing, but with this track it sound a bit like he's doing something.

That isn't what he's saying though really, cos he's talking about pushing buttons, not the choice of track.

 

yeah but what I mean is if you look at the beat juggling he does do its very simple even I could do it....but he supplements this by pressing loads of buttons at the end.

But I don't see what's wrong with that, cos the whole thing doesn't sound very good to me, lol. It's not like anyone's claiming that routine is this or that. It is what it is. The juggling (while better than I could do) is basic and often not on time and the button pressing is pretty much the same. It wouldn't be any better if he just juggled. Even if you made the argument "he should forget that button pushing and work on his juggling more" I don't think it would work, cos it's not like that button pressing stuff takes a long time to learn as you just set some cue points and tap out a rhythmic pattern.

 

 

Its the trend I dont like. Also that people feel the need to defend it even though its not great and adds little. It was the same when serato came out, my problem was never the technology but the fact that suddenly it was essential 'you should get serato mate' I tired of hearing it so much. So what if I dont like this stuff....I know it doesnt matter. I just feel I have to say something when people are so angry at rob swift for suggesting that their precious technology might get in the way of creativity....It can...not always but it can. Just buying the tools and adding extra 'hits' to the rhythm like Mike L said is not enough. If you are truly creative do you really need buttons? They are only triggers! To this day almost every dj I know prefers old battles to new battles if they are to make a decision on it.

 

Lets leave it here as it is getting a bit boring now. But I see what Rob Swift is saying and I think that people are trying to make him into a criminal when really they know exactly what he means!

[Chris]

It was the same when serato came out, my problem was never the technology but the fact that suddenly it was essential 'you should get serato mate' I tired of hearing it so much.

 

Really? But you've always been so positive about it...

[djfoly]

[Steve]

If you are truly creative do you really need buttons? They are only triggers!

That's a silly argument. If you are truly creative, you will find interesting things to do with those buttons. The guy in that video didn't, but if you took away the button pushing you wouldn't exactly be posting the vid up here and saying "this is wicked!" anyway.

 

I'm surprised you made it past the first 5 seconds of Vajra's video that Vekked posted up, given that he's using Serato throughout and he begins the routine by pushing a button on a laptop keyboard 5 times just so he can trigger a "ding" sample 5 times in a row. If he was truly creative, he wouldn't have needed those buttons as they're only triggers!

[Yoshi]

I judge routines mainly by sound. If I can enjoy listening to it while cooking, then that's fine. Only 0.00001% of the world population can properly appreciate what's going on in a juggle. If a DJ juggles mainly to show off his technique, that's only gonna get props from other DJs and not the lay person. If all DJs did that, they'd be out of a gig, coz no-one would come to see them. Audience comes first; and the audience usually can't care less about "technique".

[djfoly]

If you are truly creative do you really need buttons? They are only triggers!

That's a silly argument. If you are truly creative, you will find interesting things to do with those buttons. The guy in that video didn't, but if you took away the button pushing you wouldn't exactly be posting the vid up here and saying "this is wicked!" anyway.

 

I'm surprised you made it past the first 5 seconds of Vajra's video that Vekked posted up, given that he's using Serato throughout and he begins the routine by pushing a button on a laptop keyboard 5 times just so he can trigger a "ding" sample 5 times in a row. If he was truly creative, he wouldn't have needed those buttons as they're only triggers!

 

 

Its not silly! What I mean is that fair enough if you want them but do you NEED them. Its the idea that new technology is instantly the best thing and must be used if you are to continue to be valid as a dj and no one must criticise anyone who has done a set using new technology, that annoys me. Its obvious what Rob Swift was saying and in many cases, not all, its valid. After watching the new vajra set myself and a few others instantly said it was not as good as his 04 effort. The button pushing and complex beat patterns programmed into the vinyl instead of doing the technique has a different less human sound which I don't like. That's it thats the whole of my argument....I don't see what's 'silly' about that?. Its another case of someone being accused of being a total dick for not liking what other people like....I think THAT'S silly.

 

As for the audience argument, if you were to dj in a way that would pull the biggest audience you would be playing JLS. The audience are never to be considered important in anything. I could not care less about them if they don't like what I'm doing they can leave and avoid me in future. But that does not happen, in general if you stick to your guns then you can gather an audience that appreciates what you are doing. I have no idea what a be bop jazz band are doing but I would still go to see one in a heart beat because theyre music is based on complex patterns which is what I like.

[Steve]

Its the idea that new technology is instantly the best thing and must be used if you are to continue to be valid as a dj and no one must criticise anyone who has done a set using new technology, that annoys me.

Strawmen annoy you?

 

As for the audience argument, if you were to dj in a way that would pull the biggest audience you would be playing JLS.

That's not what Yoshi said though, is it? Do people come to your gigs just to stand there and watch you, analysing what you're doing and how you're doing it?

 

As for Vajra, if those "complex beat patterns programmed into the vinyl" were actually from a song created by someone else that was pressed on vinyl, you'd have no issue with it, but by making them himself he's being more creative, not less creative, and yet that's somehow worse in your mind.

[djfoly]

Its the idea that new technology is instantly the best thing and must be used if you are to continue to be valid as a dj and no one must criticise anyone who has done a set using new technology, that annoys me.

Strawmen annoy you?

 

As for the audience argument, if you were to dj in a way that would pull the biggest audience you would be playing JLS.

That's not what Yoshi said though, is it? Do people come to your gigs just to stand there and watch you, analysing what you're doing and how you're doing it?

 

As for Vajra, if those "complex beat patterns programmed into the vinyl" were actually from a song created by someone else that was pressed on vinyl, you'd have no issue with it, but by making them himself he's being more creative, not less creative, and yet that's somehow worse in your mind.

 

 

Why is that more creative just because hes programmed something himself? even if it was on prevously pressed vinyl I wouldn't like it because it would sound to robotic. Technique is also important. Its not always about being able to listen to things whilst ironing. Perhaps that should be the main goal but surely there is room for experimentation with patterns which can lead to new ideas. In terms of button pushing that jeremy ellis vid that Mike L posted was amazing very creative but not what I'd listen to over dinner. I think you know what I mean but for some reason, maybe because I come accross a bit strongly you have decided to keep on at me about it.

 

In certain peoples hands new technology stifles creativity the options they have are used as short cuts to making something sound like something else. With a purely vinyl set up especially if you take scratch records out of the equation battle sets tend to sound more individual in my opinion and I like that more, my opinion only.

 

What do you mean Strawmen?

[Steve]

Why is that more creative just because hes programmed something himself? even if it was on prevously pressed vinyl I wouldn't like it because it would sound to robotic.

It's more creative, because that set would be impossible with regular vinyl. Just because you can arrange sounds any way you like in Serato doesn't mean it's easy to create a decent set that way. Which part of it do you think sounds robotic? I bet if it was audio only and you didn't know how it was made, you wouldn't be saying that.

 

Perhaps that should be the main goal but surely there is room for experimentation with patterns which can lead to new ideas.

Post some of the new ideas that you've come up with.

 

With a purely vinyl set up especially if you take scratch records out of the equation battle sets tend to sound more individual in my opinion and I like that more

Yeah, the "golden era" of DMC where there was no Internet so you'd get to see maybe 12 battle sets a year on a VHS tape, where 2 of the guys stood out and the rest sounded like clones all doing the same old techniques. There's nothing about using vinyl only that specifically makes a set sound "more individual" as it completely depends on the person creating the set, so you're just exposing your bias once again there.

 

It's cool though. My grandad insisted that all records should play at 78 through a stereogram or it wasn't real music, so I understand how people can confuse familiarity for superiority.

 

As for a strawman: -

 

Generally, the straw man is a highly exaggerated or over-simplified version of the opponent's original statement, which has been distorted to the point of absurdity.

Perhaps there really are people that say this though: -

 

new technology is instantly the best thing and must be used if you are to continue to be valid as a dj and no one must criticise anyone who has done a set using new technology

But I've never seen anyone say it and it seems like a gross exaggeration that you've made up just so you can say it annoys you.

[Vekked]

I judge routines mainly by sound. If I can enjoy listening to it while cooking, then that's fine. Only 0.00001% of the world population can properly appreciate what's going on in a juggle. If a DJ juggles mainly to show off his technique, that's only gonna get props from other DJs and not the lay person. If all DJs did that, they'd be out of a gig, coz no-one would come to see them. Audience comes first; and the audience usually can't care less about "technique".

 

Judging routines by sound these days is a good way to overlook good routines in favour of not so good ones.

[Yoshi]

I judge routines mainly by sound. If I can enjoy listening to it while cooking, then that's fine. Only 0.00001% of the world population can properly appreciate what's going on in a juggle. If a DJ juggles mainly to show off his technique, that's only gonna get props from other DJs and not the lay person. If all DJs did that, they'd be out of a gig, coz no-one would come to see them. Audience comes first; and the audience usually can't care less about "technique".

 

Judging routines by sound these days is a good way to overlook good routines in favour of not so good ones.

 

You're using good in two senses. I might overlook routines that are "good" in terms of technique. But a "good routine" should be good both in sound and technique. If I do happen to overlook a technically good routine, that would be because it didn't have sufficient goodness in sound to make my head turn. In that case, I wouldn't call that routine good in the sense of it being wholly good.

[Vekked]

I judge routines mainly by sound. If I can enjoy listening to it while cooking, then that's fine. Only 0.00001% of the world population can properly appreciate what's going on in a juggle. If a DJ juggles mainly to show off his technique, that's only gonna get props from other DJs and not the lay person. If all DJs did that, they'd be out of a gig, coz no-one would come to see them. Audience comes first; and the audience usually can't care less about "technique".

 

Judging routines by sound these days is a good way to overlook good routines in favour of not so good ones.

 

I might overlook routines that are "good" in terms of technique. But a "good routine" should be good both in sound and technique. If I do happen to overlook a technically good routine, that would be because it didn't have sufficient goodness in sound to make my head turn. In that case, I wouldn't call that routine good in the sense of it being wholly good.

 

Right, but what I'm saying is two routines can sound equally "good", but one routine is being performed 90% by the DJ, and one routine can be 90% pressed on records these days. There are heaps of "tricks" battle DJs do these days like pressing sped up sentences and doing 2 clicks over them to sound crazy, or pressing more drum hits into their beats to make it sound like they're doing shit they're not. I think the days of being able to "judge" routines by sound are over, since you can't just assume the DJs are creating all of the sounds you're hearing anymore. I guess if you think a "good" routine is just one you like, then that's one thing, but if you're "judging" a routine, and trying to be objective, you're going to be missing a lot if you're just judging what sounds good to you.

[djfoly]

Why is that more creative just because hes programmed something himself? even if it was on prevously pressed vinyl I wouldn't like it because it would sound to robotic.

It's more creative, because that set would be impossible with regular vinyl. Just because you can arrange sounds any way you like in Serato doesn't mean it's easy to create a decent set that way. Which part of it do you think sounds robotic? I bet if it was audio only and you didn't know how it was made, you wouldn't be saying that.

 

Well maybe but I can garuntee you that if I heard the 04 set next to the '11 set audio only I'd still prefer the 04 set. Now they could also be reveresed in terms of technology such that the '11 set was on vinyl and vice versa. That would not change my opinion. But it is my opinion that 04 set would never be created on serato in that way as there are too many other distractions. Sometimes it makes it better often it doesnt...for me anyway. I am just asking for a bit of subtlety I suppose.

 

Perhaps that should be the main goal but surely there is room for experimentation with patterns which can lead to new ideas.

Post some of the new ideas that you've come up with.

 

With a purely vinyl set up especially if you take scratch records out of the equation battle sets tend to sound more individual in my opinion and I like that more

Yeah, the "golden era" of DMC where there was no Internet so you'd get to see maybe 12 battle sets a year on a VHS tape, where 2 of the guys stood out and the rest sounded like clones all doing the same old techniques. There's nothing about using vinyl only that specifically makes a set sound "more individual" as it completely depends on the person creating the set, so you're just exposing your bias once again there.

 

I don't see how a preference is a bias. If I genuinely liked something created using these technologies I would....my 'Bias' toward vinyl wouldn't stop me. I think that you would like it if it did so that you could enjoy getting me told about it but wouldn't

 

It's cool though. My grandad insisted that all records should play at 78 through a stereogram or it wasn't real music, so I understand how people can confuse familiarity for superiority.

 

As for a strawman: -

 

Generally, the straw man is a highly exaggerated or over-simplified version of the opponent's original statement, which has been distorted to the point of absurdity.

Perhaps there really are people that say this though: -

 

new technology is instantly the best thing and must be used if you are to continue to be valid as a dj and no one must criticise anyone who has done a set using new technology

But I've never seen anyone say it and it seems like a gross exaggeration that you've made up just so you can say it annoys you.

 

Why is that more creative just because hes programmed something himself? even if it was on prevously pressed vinyl I wouldn't like it because it would sound to robotic.

 

It's more creative, because that set would be impossible with regular vinyl. Just because you can arrange sounds any way you like in Serato doesn't mean it's easy to create a decent set that way. Which part of it do you think sounds robotic? I bet if it was audio only and you didn't know how it was made, you wouldn't be saying that.

 

 

 

 

new technology is instantly the best thing and must be used if you are to continue to be valid as a dj and no one must criticise anyone who has done a set using new technology

But I've never seen anyone say it and it seems like a gross exaggeration that you've made up just so you can say it annoys you.

 

Well obviously you are right here (well done) no one has ever said that but the exaggerated comment is to generalise the feeling of the comments I hear regarding new technology. I agree its not the best way to conduct an argument...and also that it could sound bitter and a bit shit....so you know sorry! But again I think that you and everyone else knows what I mean here.

[Steve]

Do you like my new watch, Joe? It's a wind up.

[djfoly]

I aint had no fun like that in a while! Cheers Steven! Just like the good old days. Shame mattnice aint here to enjoy it all!

[Steve]

LOL. I was gonna try and push you a bit further each time until you went off on one and told me to fuck off, but I'm not that mean.