The Ruck Deck

[Guest Mike Reezy]

you can only manipulate what has already been created. that is the limit of turntables. a pianist can sit down, improve a solo. without that solo being recorded on wax it will be very dificult to recreate it with the same dynamics as it was originally played. you can probably do it but definitely not on the fly like a traditional instrument can. its almost like saying that adobe audition is an instrument cause you can recreate the solo but its still just manipulating recorded sound. that is a big limitation.

 

but it does have properties that allow it to manipulate sound in real time like nothing else. it has the potential of blowing every other instument out of the water like you say, but that depends on what sounds you have to manipulate (a limitation). a turntable by itself is nothing and a mixer by themselves does nothing.

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And your instruments are limited to the sounds (samples) contained within their strings (or w/e method they use)

 

Ricci did make a track just with the turntable as a sound module.......

(it sucked tho )

 

evrything has limitations except your mind

 

Having said that, it's not like I think D, Mike or Ricc are making bad music or anything, quite the opposite, som of it is really interesting. I just wish they wouldn't act like they're going to change the face of music when they haven't even changed the face of DJ'ing.

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explain to me what the face of djing is? I dont consider myself a DJ and would actually be offended if you called me one. I dont jock records... I bet Ricci doesnt even like to be referred to as a DJ.

 

 

If you accept that the turntable is limited in that it can only alter what was recorded previoussly, then you will realize that it is completely limitless.

Ad to that all the crazy things that can be done with the samples and how your press them up....... and you can turn the 8 sideways.

 

I dont think the turntable is an instrument, but it is a highly effective tool for live production....

 

 

Also I think the idea about 'play someone shit fade it a bit kutt it here there' (what D said) and claiming it as your own is like stealing a car???????

 

I kinda agree, if you stole a car and pimped it so hard that it was no longer recognizable as the car that you stole, then you have made it your own new car .

 

Thats how I feel about samples

[Max]

dude...you're getting a bit carried away. Tone it down a bit.

[$a!n+]

you can only manipulate what has already been created. that is the limit of turntables. a pianist can sit down, improve a solo. without that solo being recorded on wax it will be very dificult to recreate it with the same dynamics as it was originally played. you can probably do it but definitely not on the fly like a traditional instrument can. its almost like saying that adobe audition is an instrument cause you can recreate the solo but its still just manipulating recorded sound. that is a big limitation.

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The pianist didnt create the strings, the notes, the scales, the keys, the piano, anything. All that is PRECREATED in order for the pianist to sit down and randomly arrange notes to his choice. With only 12 notes in western culture, with the right amount of preparation, one could flip a good melodic "freestyle." The record of prerecorded sounds, Is just like the strings on a guitar and the predetermened notes and scales.

 

Maybe a piano has the capabilities to play more notes at once or can reach more octaves, but each instrument has its range. A bass plays one not at a time and only has our strings, each instrument has its own creative properties.

[Guest Mike Reezy]

dude...you're getting a bit carried away. Tone it down a bit.

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please dont tell me what to do. Im having a discussion, if you dont have anything to add to it, then dont post,

[Guest Mike Reezy]

that may have been the wisest thing you have ever said Gabe!

 

 

People use different strings for different sounds just like we would use different records...

[Liam]

God dammit I hate this age old versatility of the turntable bollocks. I mean, they're not are they, in a musical sense anyway. It's bollocks, sorry! Why is it that anybody who's ever played a musical instrument seems to be sceptical of the turntables potential as an instrument where as those that haven't seem to have formed the opposite opinion?

 

The music created using turntables and turntable manipulation alone is incredibly limited IMHO. That's not to say limitation is a bad thing however, in fact, limitation can often invoke more creativity in a sense but at the end of the day all that's going on with this shit is that the Sampler is being replace by the DJ and I think the sampler does a much better job.

 

pz

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^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

Agree 100% with all of that.

[Guest Deeswift]

A bass plays one not at a time and only has our strings, each instrument has its own creative properties.

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Eh? So did you ever listen to Victor Wooten? Listen to him play chords, solos and percussive parts all at the same time. And to say a bass has only 4 strings? What about 5, 6, 8, 12 string basses? Acoustic ones, electric ones, upright ones, totally unique ones like the Chapman Stick, basses with strange rubber strings...

 

there's loads of variations of the instrument itself and not all bassplayers play single notes.

 

God dammit I hate this age old versatility of the turntable bollocks. I mean, they're not are they, in a musical sense anyway. It's bollocks, sorry! Why is it that anybody who's ever played a musical instrument seems to be sceptical of the turntables potential as an instrument where as those that haven't seem to have formed the opposite opinion?

 

The music created using turntables and turntable manipulation alone is incredibly limited IMHO. That's not to say limitation is a bad thing however, in fact, limitation can often invoke more creativity in a sense but at the end of the day all that's going on with this shit is that the Sampler is being replace by the DJ and I think the sampler does a much better job.

 

pz

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^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

Agree 100% with all of that.

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Me too.

[Guest Ryan]

Ive got a great victor wooten video i must post up. Its fuckin

[Steve]

Dee makes some good points there I think.

 

People use different strings for different sounds. A guitar has maybe 6 strings that can all be played at the same time if you like and with lots of variation. You can switch between single notes and subtle playing, to all out insane solos in an instant. A turntable can only use one record at any one time and is limited by what's pressed onto that record. I think Ricci Rucker is probably the best scratch drummer I've heard as far as attempting to emulate a real drummer, but even he sounds so simplistic compared to Virgil Donati playing the drums and he always will. Why do you think Gunkhole uses a real drummer?

 

I mean, I was the scratch drummer, and people get hyped, but I listen to music for real, and I know what it takes to get different energy levels. Scratch drums dont have that effect 100% of the time...

Explain how that's different with any other instrument.

 

If you accept that the turntable is limited in that it can only alter what was recorded previoussly, then you will realize that it is completely limitless.

Accept that the turntable is limited and then you will realize that it is limitless??? You say it's unlimited, but it's not an instrument. What is it then?

[$a!n+]

A bass plays one not at a time and only has our strings, each instrument has its own creative properties.

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Eh? So did you ever listen to Victor Wooten? Listen to him play chords, solos and percussive parts all at the same time. And to say a bass has only 4 strings? What about 5, 6, 8, 12 string basses? Acoustic ones, electric ones, upright ones, totally unique ones like the Chapman Stick, basses with strange rubber strings...

 

there's loads of variations of the instrument itself and not all bassplayers play single notes.

 

 

Dee states the Obvious

 

C'Mon Dee i was trying to make a point. The bass player in my band plays a 6 string and plays chords quite often (to often sometimes.) Primus is one of my favs, again I was just making the comparison between instruments.

[$a!n+]

I disagree that the sampler does a better job. It may be more precise and on time and perfect or quantized or whatever, but thats all the downsides too. Its a lifeless instrument. I like to hear a human. Those machine that play guitars are a perfect example. They play it "better" than a human, but that makes it flat and lifeless.

[Steve]

I disagree with that. Triggering samples on a sampler is the same as playing a keyboard. You still have to hit keys unless it's pre-sequenced. A human is still playing it. If all you wanted to do is release samples, what is the point of doing it on a turntable? Just so people can say "Wow. Look at that. They're doing that on a turntable!"? If I was at a really high standard, I would be making music that could only be made on a turntable because it would be impossible to create similar sounds using a sampler unless you sampled me.

[$a!n+]

"If all you wanted to do is release samples, what is the point of doing it on a turntable?"

 

 

I am a turntablist not a samplist. But anyway, I enjoy the hand eye coordination the tables take. A sampler doesnt really take that, and I think it carries out. I see the turntable as a way for producers to have something to play. A production tool.

 

So yeah, presequenced samples or whatever, or a one button sampler, feels lifeless to me. Not the sound not the approach jus the "feel." And sometimes i like the machine feel.

 

The small manmade mistakes that come with tablism are half of its beauty. Look at cue burn!

[Steve]

Yes, but you can't argue that some tracks you hear on message boards could just as easily have been made using a sampler, or by loading sounds into Audition and dragging them around. It's the novelty aspect of them being made on turntables that some people look at and think is cool. I'd rather hear a DJ like Excess, because he combines musicality with technicality. You don't even hear scratching at all in some cases - open fader - release sound - close fader - pull back sound and repeat. If I made a track like that and said "This has been made using a sampler" and then a year later said "Remember that track, it was really all made on a turntable", it would be the same track. What if I didn't tell you how it was made? The fact you could believe that it was made either way only tells me it doesn't really matter which way it was made, because the end result is the same. I listen to music for the music itself.

 

When people are perfecting their technique, is it not fair to say they're trying to avoid mistakes? A lot of development has gone into turntables and carts/stylus that skip less and a lot of practice has been put in by people trying to sound precise. The last thing I want when trying to cut, drum or make mixes and music is for the record to skip. Sounds being burnt is a fair point, but that's not half of it's beauty. People choose to use burnt sounds for a song, so that's pre-planned, not a mistake. A sound doesn't become burnt mid-performance usually. It's just a consequence of using the same sound over and over again rather than being a mistake.

[$a!n+]

^^^^^I think it would "FEEL" obviously made with a sampler. They just have a dry computer sound. Unless you tried to program a sampler to sound like it has human flawwed characteristics, but i dont think that makes sense. you would just not sample in the first.

 

I like the way a sound sounds manipulated on wax.

[Guest Mike Reezy]

I never said it was an instrument, I consider it more like a production tool, that can be manipulated with hands in rhythmic manners.

 

I never said that turntable drumming or fluting or w/e etc etc etc was better than the real thing with a rela instrument I just said that you can do shit with it that you cant do with the real instrument.

 

Why turntable over samplers? Like my man Gabe said, human emotion.Do I have to mention that the turntable is the best way to manipulate sound?Reverse engineering? I like the subleties, of human impercection,error, improvisation, its the same reason I prefer live music over recorded music anyday......

 

If you accept that the turntable can only manipulate sounds that have been recorded onto wax, then you will realize it is limitless.

^^^^ makes perfect sense, what I said was that if you allow the records part as a prerequisite for the statement.

 

You could say the same thing about instruments they are limited to the sound contained within the strings or stretched animal skin or w/e.. they are limited! And musicians alter their instruments accordingly to achieve sounds that they desire (this is how instruments are CREATED). Just like we change records, only we can change our whole set of sounds in seconds, and they have to use another instrument, or restring their guitar or something................ .... ....... . . ....

 

 

-I dont know about the dry computer sound gabe, it sounds like w/e sounds you use, but as for lack of emotion.. of course it is lacking in that department!!!!! The apostle is preaching. Preach on!

 

hahahaa

[cbay]

Yes, but you can't argue that some tracks you hear on message boards could just as easily have been made using a sampler, or by loading sounds into Audition and dragging them around. It's the novelty aspect of them being made on turntables that some people look at and think is cool. I'd rather hear a DJ like Excess, because he combines musicality with technicality. You don't even hear scratching at all in some cases - open fader - release sound - close fader - pull back sound and repeat. If I made a track like that and said "This has been made using a sampler" and then a year later said "Remember that track, it was really all made on a turntable", it would be the same track. What if I didn't tell you how it was made? The fact you could believe that it was made either way only tells me it doesn't really matter which way it was made, because the end result is the same. I listen to music for the music itself.

 

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if the music is good, fuck how it was made. and i agree with the excess statement, i dont give a fuck if he made lally with an mpc or purely scratching.. its brilliant

[Guest Mike Reezy]

I dont care how the music was made... and I dont put that into context when judging if I like it or not.

 

I fully agree somne things are good for something and some things are good for others....

 

I just like the degree of manipulation possible on a turntable+mixer

 

I would love to fuck with one of these Ruck decks.

 

Havent you guys ever hit the 33/45 button alternating to achieve a dope effect? This is the same principle

[cbay]

has anyone tried scratching with a wah? its fuckin sick.

[Guest Mike Reezy]

has anyone tried scratching with a wah? its fuckin sick.

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I wish, Tyler says hes buying a rc20xl with his next paycheck.. we need to get one tho..

[Huw]

DEE, what is a chapman stick bass?

[cbay]

has anyone tried scratching with a wah? its fuckin sick.

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I wish, Tyler says hes buying a rc20xl with his next paycheck.. we need to get one tho..

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i gotta get an rc20xl...

 

just wondering, would 'turntable music' (i guess what i mean is music composed by live sampling and manipulation of records) be considered as electronic music?

[pedostyle]

i know this is way back there but i would rather be called a dj than a turntablist

 

who cares if we dont jockey disks... turntablist sounds lame to me

 

not to mention the 50 thousand debates about how if you cant beat juggle scratch mix make a fuckin grilled cheese sandiwich using nothing but your tongue and the fader you cant call yourself a turntablist

 

shit ima call myself a vinyl pedophile for all i care

 

i gotta lay off the pcp

[Steve]

Titles are irrelevant really. A guitarist might say "I want to be called a music maker, not a guitarist" but he's still doing the same thing. If a turntablist is someone who plays a turntable by definition, then like it or not that's what most people here are. Some people don't wanna be related to certain people's ideas of what turntablism is so they shy away from the title. Me personally, I just call myself a DJ, but I prefer plain old Steve.

[JWalker]

Not sure if calling myself a steve is gonna work, steve!