Some things I don't like about MP3 DJing

[Steve]

1. It's a step back in sound quality. At the very least, we should be talking about FLAC or WAV files, not some 10+ year old inferior lossy compression. Based on what I've seen posted up on various DJ forums, in terms of quality, people seem more concerned with what they can get away with than what sounds the best.

 

2. MP3s are worthless. You buy them, but you can never sell them. You get no tangible item that you can hold in your hands, no artwork, you are paying for a copy of something rather than paying for something. Assuming you're paying at all of course.

 

3. Digital DJing is not as good as DJing with vinyl. Ask any scratch DJ and they will tell you this. Club DJing? OK, you can roll up to the club with 100,000 tunes on a hard drive, but then you have to take a Serato box, laptop etc. You can't just roll up with a bag of records, do your thing, then fuck off again.

 

4. MP3 devalues music, in that it makes it "pirateable". You can have a rare record, but a rare MP3? - not possible. If one person buys your MP3, they can distribute it to X amount of people and you will never see anything from that.

 

5. Standards! When DJs only used vinyl, you knew you could turn up with a bag of records and you'd be fine. Can you just turn up with MP3s on a memory stick? No. DJ manufacturers are dying to sell you cheap gear that doesn't last, only to be replaced by the next "big thing" with no real longevity, and as such you don't know what the f*ck you need to be taking to a gig, so you end up taking everything.

 

6. Can't mix a song? Just edit it! Who needs to actually learn skills, when you can make a song as "mixable" as you like. In fact, a whole market is out there catering to DJs like this.

 

7. Anyone can call themselves a DJ these days. MP3 DJing is the prime cause of this. "But I have so much more time to do cool stuff!" is way offset by "but any n00blet can get VirtualDJ and hit the automix button".

[djdiggla]

Foly got u to drink the kool-aid, eh?

[djdiggla]

Just for argument sake I'll bite...

 

1. It's a step back in sound quality. At the very least, we should be talking about FLAC or WAV files, not some 10+ year old inferior lossy compression. Based on what I've seen posted up on various DJ forums, in terms of quality, people seem more concerned with what they can get away with than what sounds the best.

 

Well people are retards. WAVs don't hold any tags which makes them worthless. Somebody needs to make a simple LAME program. That shit is so frustrating to setup for the normal person.

 

 

2. MP3s are worthless. You buy them, but you can never sell them. You get no tangible item that you can hold in your hands, no artwork, you are paying for a copy of something rather than paying for something. Assuming you're paying at all of course.

 

MP3s have made dope remixes more common and current electronic genres more vibrant as I see it... I think that's pretty cool personally. Its cool to buy the vinyl if available but a lot of the stuff would never get pressed in sizable runs b/c of copyright infring or lack of funding anyways...

 

 

 

3. Digital DJing is not as good as DJing with vinyl. Ask any scratch DJ and they will tell you this. Club DJing? OK, you can roll up to the club with 100,000 tunes on a hard drive, but then you have to take a Serato box, laptop etc. You can't just roll up with a bag of records, do your thing, then fuck off again.

 

Most people I know that DJ'd clubs for a living didn't roll up with a bag of records... try 3-4 crates. Laptop beats that any day. Besides Rane ended the need for serato box already...

 

 

4. MP3 devalues music, in that it makes it "pirateable". You can have a rare record, but a rare MP3? - not possible. If one person buys your MP3, they can distribute it to X amount of people and you will never see anything from that.

 

To me the nice thing is the viral spread of music...

Also spending the whole night worrying if my records were gonna get jacked or drinks spilled on them or one cracked from being packed too tight SUCKS... With a flash drive or hard drive it's really whatever... It would be inconvenient but not a disaster like if it had been my records!

 

 

 

5. Standards! When DJs only used vinyl, you knew you could turn up with a bag of records and you'd be fine. Can you just turn up with MP3s on a memory stick? No. DJ manufacturers are dying to sell you cheap gear that doesn't last, only to be replaced by the next "big thing" with no real longevity, and as such you don't know what the f*ck you need to be taking to a gig, so you end up taking everything.

 

I don't know where u DJ but half the people I know DJ solely off a memory stick including myself.

I also have great memories of showing up with a bag of records and wishing I had brought a different set b/c the vibe is totally different from what I expected...

 

6. Can't mix a song? Just edit it! Who needs to actually learn skills, when you can make a song as "mixable" as you like. In fact, a whole market is out there catering to DJs like this.

 

I don't think there is anything wrong with adding a few bar into to a song that isn't mix friendly. Makes sense actually. Maybe the person that made the song is the retard for doing it stupid in the first place.

 

 

7. Anyone can call themselves a DJ these days. MP3 DJing is the prime cause of this. "But I have so much more time to do cool stuff!" is way offset by "but any n00blet can get VirtualDJ and hit the automix button".

 

Anyone has always been able to call themself a DJ... and DJs didn't always mix and scratch, so it's not like it's a degradation of DJing... maybe it's just gone full circle. It's one think to call yourself a DJ and it's a totally different thing to practice the artform of DJing.

[Steve]

There are lossless formats that support tags. There's no good reason to use MP3, other than the fact the masses know what MP3 is.

 

Some of your other points are only being made simply because MP3s exist, and people will take convenience over quality. Buy a 12" for £3.99 or download the MP3 for free? Hmmmm, what shall I do?

 

You could argue that you can stick your MP3s up on the web and get people to listen to them. That's cool. It's something you couldn't do with vinyl, but are you spinning MP3s from random doods in clubs? Are you fuck! Also, if you can put up an MP3 for download, so can I, so can 10 million other doods on MySpace. Everyone's a wannabe pop star and your audio file gets lost in the ether.

 

As for actual DJing skills, I listen to a lot of hip hop mixes and give people feedback. I've heard many formulaic mixes where the DJ has used all "funky mixes" of tracks, or they've padded out the intro. It usually goes - bring in next track, lower the bass on the outgoing track, cut to incoming track - I've heard it so many times. If they had no choice but to mix vinyl, they would be forced to learn some different transition techniques and they'd be a better DJ for it, instead of a lazy one.

 

And with the lowering of skills with things like autoBPM and automatic beatmatching, that's like taking a job like computer programming and saying "you no longer have to attend university for 4 years, you can learn it all in 6 months instead". That leads to more people jumping on board and the wages of DJs going down.

[djdiggla]

There are lossless formats that support tags. There's no good reason to use MP3, other than the fact the masses know what MP3 is.

 

I thought everybody used AIFFs

(but still called em MP3s!)

 

 

Some of your other points are only being made simply because MP3s exist, and people will take convenience over quality. Buy a 12" for £3.99 or download the MP3 for free? Hmmmm, what shall I do?

 

Like I said, most of the stuff I DL isn't for sale anywhere... The stuff that is, I get direct from labels via my mp3 pool. So it's kinda a non-argument for me. I don't DL commercially available shit which is what it sounds like u have a qualm with... I've always found that P2P sites have almost nothing to offer me both in terms of music and quality.

 

 

 

You could argue that you can stick your MP3s up on the web and get people to listen to them. That's cool. It's something you couldn't do with vinyl, but are you spinning MP3s from random doods in clubs? Are you fuck!

 

Yes, actually, most of these remixes and/or club/dance music I spin are by people I never heard of... so yes.

 

 

 

As for actual DJing skills, I listen to a lot of hip hop mixes and give people feedback. I've heard many formulaic mixes where the DJ has used all "funky mixes" of tracks, or they've padded out the intro. It usually goes - bring in next track, lower the bass on the outgoing track, cut to incoming track - I've heard it so many times. If they had no choice but to mix vinyl, they would be forced to learn some different transition techniques and they'd be a better DJ for it, instead of a lazy one.

 

I hear ya on that... most hiphop mixes suck so bad nowadays tho... from track selection to skill--most shit doesn't even seem to be mixed! I don't know if that's to be blamed on DVS/mp3/tech tho as much as all the "exclusive" mixtape crap running the mixtape scene... I don't really consider a good mix lazy tho... Dope trick-mix transitions are nice of course, but I can appreciate a good mix--esp if that's all somebody can do. I just wouldn't personally make the assumption that vinyl would force people to be any better... I think you r giving hobbyist/net DJs way too much credit (didn't u just say anyone can post shit up on the net?). But seriously, does this surprise you that hiphop DJs cant do anything skilled anymore??? Hiphop is a pop genre now... DJs barely exist in hiphop as far as the general public is concerned for like the last 20 years... why is this a surprise that DJs got no skill??! I just wouldn't blame that on DVS and mp3s, I'd blame it on the failure of hiphop to stay true to itself. Sidelining the element that created it...

 

And with the lowering of skills with things like autoBPM and automatic beatmatching, that's like taking a job like computer programming and saying "you no longer have to attend university for 4 years, you can learn it all in 6 months instead". That leads to more people jumping on board and the wages of DJs going down.

I hear this argument ALL the time but I have yet to see someone here using an auto bpm program... Well, now that I think about it maybe once but it was so ghey... that shit just doesn't fly here, but maybe it does most places.

[Steve]

You're not a n00b just getting into the scene though Dirk. There's a difference in attitude that comes from learning a certain way IMO. I don't use Serato like I see DJs on YouTube using it, staring at waveforms and all that shit.

 

Record pools have always been around. If MP3s didn't exist, you'd get sent records. That's a different argument really.

 

I'm posting this on the wrong forum I guess. I don't think there's a single person here that posts regularly that hasn't got a decent amount of experience of using 2 decks, a mixer, and records and the skills learned and attitude picked up there are carried over if/when they switch to a different format.

 

Dope transitions are nice of course, but I can appreciate a good mix if that's all somebody can do. I just wouldn't personally make the assumption that vinyl would force people to be any better... I think you r giving hobbyist DJs way too much credit

Look at it this way. Learning to mix with vinyl is quite difficult. It requires an investment of cash and time, much more so than downloading a cracked version of Virtual DJ or Ableton and getting your tunes from a P2P network. You're gonna sound wack with vinyl for a long time, compared to software that provides that instant gratification. You could say that can separate the men from the boys. Sure, there are people that buy decks, it ain't for them, so the decks go on eBay, but if they can sound borderline OK after using Virtual DJ for a week, they're more likely to stick with it. It makes it easier for those that get into DJing for the wrong reasons to compete with those that get into it for what I consider to be the right reasons.

[djdiggla]

I see what ya mean now... And I think it's true that most peeps on DV are different from the rest... it is gonna be a sad day when "controllerism" is what is considered DJing....

 

I actually feel this way about photography. Every fuck that has +$900 buys a digital SLR and thinks they are a photographer. The camera does EVERYTHING for them! They couldn't take a quality image ever. It's just snaps, not photos. I spent years in a wet darkroom and now have all these fucks talking about how they are into photography (interestingly, a lot of them OG DJs too)...

 

So, I think ur feelings on new jack DJs are akin to mine on new jack Photographers.... Which I can totally understand... maybe I just had to get drunk first to be on the level> LOL

[Steve]

I see what ya mean now... And I think it's true that most peeps on DV are different from the rest... it is gonna be a sad day when "controllerism" is what is considered DJing....

Yeah, that's what I mean I guess. I see a lot of people saying "it doesn't matter how it's done, it's how it sounds that matters", but then a guy on DJ Forums posted up a "juggling" vid where he was just pressing a button on a laptop to loop/stutter a beat and he got flamed to shit for it by some of the people that claim not to care how something is done. It's kind of like - if scratching like Qbert was something anyone could do, then why would anyone be impressed by hearing Qbert scratching? People appreciate it because either they can't do it but recognise the skill it takes, or because they can do it and they've put in hours and hours of practice and know the level of skill it takes. If they thought it was as easy as pushing a button, nobody would give a shit.

[x2k]

1. It's a step back in sound quality. At the very least, we should be talking about FLAC or WAV files, not some 10+ year old inferior lossy compression. Based on what I've seen posted up on various DJ forums, in terms of quality, people seem more concerned with what they can get away with than what sounds the best.

 

This may be a valid issue when making a mix cd but when mixing on radio, internet stream, in 98% of clubs or saving as a mp3 and uploading online the sound quality is already going to be lower than the quality of 320kbps mp3s. I think WAV files are a bit of a daft idea really because they are so massive, FLAC would be a better option but isn't never really caught on for some reason and I'm not sure it ever will on account of these multi-part audio files which are slowly appearing where you can have all the individual parts of a track seperated (e.g. drums, bass, vocal, leads) as well as different remixes all in 1 file...when that takes of DJing will change alot more!

 

2. MP3s are worthless. You buy them, but you can never sell them. You get no tangible item that you can hold in your hands, no artwork, you are paying for a copy of something rather than paying for something. Assuming you're paying at all of course.

 

This is very true and something I'm quite sad about, at the same time I often get annoyed with my record collection because it's something I feel strongly about and am quite attached to but it's a burden, sometimes I wish it just wasn't there. Now with my mp3 collection, serato & my ipod I find music as just something to enjoy in moment and don't have any need to get too attached to it and I'm actually liking that. Still love records though!

 

3. Digital DJing is not as good as DJing with vinyl. Ask any scratch DJ and they will tell you this. Club DJing? OK, you can roll up to the club with 100,000 tunes on a hard drive, but then you have to take a Serato box, laptop etc. You can't just roll up with a bag of records, do your thing, then fuck off again.

 

There is definitely a trade off of the simplicity of digital DJing against set up, however you can get the seamless plugging/unplugging down to quite an art so long as you don't get too pissed. Life would be easier if more people were using the same systems so it was just a matter of swapping laptops, harddrives or usb sticks and I get the impression it is in the us hences diggla's usb stick comment.

 

It's definitely different using timecoded vinyl to records but for 95% of DJs it's not really any different, even for alot of scratchers I can tell the difference but it's still adequate for my skills, however I do appreciate that for more precise scratchers at the top of the game it could be a real bitch.

 

4. MP3 devalues music, in that it makes it "pirateable". You can have a rare record, but a rare MP3? - not possible. If one person buys your MP3, they can distribute it to X amount of people and you will never see anything from that.

 

Very true but at the same time the music industry has been fucked for many years, the people who have been getting the money most are often the wrong people, maybe not so much the case with independent labels and their artists but certainly on the majors. The down side with mp3s is the pirate aspect but at the same time if you do buy them (depending from where) I think you can be a little bit more comfortable with the fact that the artist is probably getting a better share.

 

I read a good artical about how things have changed where it said that previously bands used their live act to sell their music as that was where the money was, now the bands artist has to use their music to sell the live act as that is where they get paid now....is that a bad thing? I remember an interview with Roni Size with him saying download all our music from filesharing sites but if you like it come to a gig and buy a t-shirt which I think is great.

 

It will be a real shame if it gets to the point where artists cannot make money to live but whatever happens the world will go on and while there's people they will always make music.

 

5. Standards! When DJs only used vinyl, you knew you could turn up with a bag of records and you'd be fine. Can you just turn up with MP3s on a memory stick? No. DJ manufacturers are dying to sell you cheap gear that doesn't last, only to be replaced by the next "big thing" with no real longevity, and as such you don't know what the f*ck you need to be taking to a gig, so you end up taking everything.

 

I had the first experience with turning up at gig with serato and being confronted with a traktor box this last weekend, I wasn't impressed it's was a pretty shit situation. Saying that though DJs are just lazy fuckers who want the easy way out, they used to have to lug around loads of equipment and records in order to get paid to play other peoples tunes, now they don't even want to do that, bands cart around guitar amps, mic stands and drum kits then play music they've written then have to split the payment between the members and you're winging about plugging in a serato box haha....I'm not having go and I agree it's a pain in the arse but if you're going to get paid what is essentailly a pretty fucking good hourly rate you should really be willing to do a little bit of work

 

6. Can't mix a song? Just edit it! Who needs to actually learn skills, when you can make a song as "mixable" as you like. In fact, a whole market is out there catering to DJs like this.

 

I've never done this, I know people do and to be honest is seems like quite an obvious thing to do but I just find it more hassle editing a song than finding a way to mix it or finding a different song to play. I think all these things which make life easier are find so long as you use the extra time you have to see which other ways you can push yourself. When I DJ I party DJ for myself, I want to challenge myself, I'm not the sort of DJ who tunes up and plays generic tunes one after the other in a dark corner of a bar for 8hrs, I've got no problems with people who do that, the work for them is the endurance and putting up with the scum you have to deal with, for me I like to play 1-3hrs and make it something special for me, I want to feel I push myself and did well rather that just kept the music going, sadly that may go over 90% of the punters heads so a cheaper less interesting DJ may get booked instead next time.

 

7. Anyone can call themselves a DJ these days. MP3 DJing is the prime cause of this. "But I have so much more time to do cool stuff!" is way offset by "but any n00blet can get VirtualDJ and hit the automix button".

 

I think the anyone can call themselves a DJ thing has been about for ever really, there was a time here when DJing was hugely popular and you'd have more DJs at partys than party goes, most of them had learn to beat match and mix records in a month or 2, they obviously weren't the greatest DJs but they could quite easily keep the party jumping all night. The fact is if they press the automix they will either get bored after a few months and quit or learn to mix properly and act like they are gods greatest gift and rake in the glory and money and while these people are cunts they're they same ones who are doing well now with medioca DJ skills but a massive gob always on the blag and they will always exist.

 

I dunno what my points where with all those answers but I feel I've got a few things out me system lol

[djfoly]

How long has serato/final scratch(great name)/traktor been out? seems like fucking ages. It amazes me, the response is still so defensive on either side. Vinyl heads condem it then the digi boys defend it and start getting all passive agressive. Its starting to crack me up now! I'm not innocent for fuck sake I came on this board with a serious atitude problem toward serato. But thanks to those who had a less smug way of expressing themselves than me at the time I have learnt that is a very valuble tool for building a fantastic and creative dj set.

 

That said, and this is the real meat and potatoes of it for me, the problem I have is the loss!

 

The loss of culture, Hip Hop culture now you can say the boring old bullshit 'get back in your time machine' or whatever but if you do then fuck you coz I LOVE hip hop!!!!! its about archivy to me. In years to come when I'm on deaths doorstep I will sit down and explain the whole thing to my kids and we can spend a week or too learning about a phenomemnon that changed the world forever. Now we could also do that just sitting round the internet but theres no way there gonna feel the same way about it. They might not like it they might think its primitive and agressive but at least they will learn something about who there Dad was and in a very poignant way!

 

I am a total hippie! I really believe in preserving culture in a way that it can evolve from the essence of how it started slowly rather than just going right fuck that that was the 90s what do the girls like now? The excitement I feel when buying a record will NEVER be matched buy digital technology.

 

FTR....steve is exactly right on all his points IMO!!!!!

[djfoly]

Dont Fuck With The Real Shit!!!

 

[$a!n+]

Records and turntables hurt my back. Doctor bills are expensive. I want the cheapest way to manipulate music with the most creative freedom. Digital does that for me. Granted, my TT's and record collection look great set up in my living room. I DJ'd with wax for a long time.

 

There is stuff Daft Punk and Justice are doing that wpuldn't be possible with wax. I like new school.

[Blak Randy]

I DJ'd in a bar last week with serato and no control records or cds. Really. That's how much I gave a fuck about that,

 

All of my fave djs playing "proper" sets though use wax and I love it.

[Blak Randy]

I DJ'd in a bar last week with serato and no control records or cds. Really. That's how much I gave a fuck about that,

 

All of my fave djs playing "proper" sets though use wax and I love it.

 

The best DJ I have seen is also a guy I know. He doesn't tell anyone where he gets his vinyl and when he dj's he covers the center of his records with cds so no one can see what they are. He scours for insane forgotten things that no one knows and always seems to find unbelievable records. It amazes me that these records haven't been exploited, repressed ect as they are so good but he consistently finds them. His wwhole life and ethos on djing is just scouring for bizar records. He also has no interest in finding the "This is really rare, you have to find it" vinyl. Loads of his stuff is worthless library music and stuff.

I love this aspect of djing. I really do.

 

But if you are just gonna head to a bar and play the last 20 hip hop bangers and a few classic funk breaks you may as well just use serato for ease.

[$a!n+]

What I am sick of is DJs that suck. They have sucked and always will suck. DJ's that bought decks ten years ago and still can't mix, and they want to tell me I suck because I don't drag my tables to a club. These DJ's mash train wreck after train wreck in the name of being a "purist." I can juggle, scratch mix, blend, live loop compasistions... and it was all rooted around tables and a mixer. The more technology progresses the more I realize that I am not a DJ just as much as I am not a guitarist. I'm a songwriter and a musician. I like to manipulate sounds in real time. Whether it be a traditional instrument, or a record, or a laptop. I want to imagine a sond or song and manifest in real time in front of an audience. I want to perform my music.

 

As far as Ableton being a crutch well, it's fucking hard to learn! I used to be a computer programmer so I really enjoy coming up with new ways to deconstruct and remix new sounds and songs via midi mapping to my MPD. I feel comfy and at home.

 

I guess what I am saying is controllerism is a different art form where a lot of the process takes place in prep. You have to be a pretty smart person to be able to program an impressive live set. You have to be a pretty smart person to play a great traditional DJ set. But every asshole with two hands can press play and stop, be it a turntable or a laptop.

 

The question lies in the skills. The thought process. The idea of creating new ideas. If you can fart on a snare drum and it sound amazing I respect it. That doesn't mean I respect people that fart on drums...

 

Now where is my snare drum? I got gas.

[djfoly]

I DJ'd in a bar last week with serato and no control records or cds. Really. That's how much I gave a fuck about that,

 

All of my fave djs playing "proper" sets though use wax and I love it.

 

The best DJ I have seen is also a guy I know. He doesn't tell anyone where he gets his vinyl and when he dj's he covers the center of his records with cds so no one can see what they are. He scours for insane forgotten things that no one knows and always seems to find unbelievable records. It amazes me that these records haven't been exploited, repressed ect as they are so good but he consistently finds them. His wwhole life and ethos on djing is just scouring for bizar records. He also has no interest in finding the "This is really rare, you have to find it" vinyl. Loads of his stuff is worthless library music and stuff.

I love this aspect of djing. I really do.

 

But if you are just gonna head to a bar and play the last 20 hip hop bangers and a few classic funk breaks you may as well just use serato for ease.

 

 

I dissgaree! BTW when i make music with my mate we are called duke and duke, I know we have said it before but it really is one of the best films ever made!

 

oooooooooooooooh winthorpe!

[Blak Randy]

I DJ'd in a bar last week with serato and no control records or cds. Really. That's how much I gave a fuck about that,

 

All of my fave djs playing "proper" sets though use wax and I love it.

 

The best DJ I have seen is also a guy I know. He doesn't tell anyone where he gets his vinyl and when he dj's he covers the center of his records with cds so no one can see what they are. He scours for insane forgotten things that no one knows and always seems to find unbelievable records. It amazes me that these records haven't been exploited, repressed ect as they are so good but he consistently finds them. His wwhole life and ethos on djing is just scouring for bizar records. He also has no interest in finding the "This is really rare, you have to find it" vinyl. Loads of his stuff is worthless library music and stuff.

I love this aspect of djing. I really do.

 

But if you are just gonna head to a bar and play the last 20 hip hop bangers and a few classic funk breaks you may as well just use serato for ease.

 

 

I dissgaree! BTW when i make music with my mate we are called duke and duke, I know we have said it before but it really is one of the best films ever made!

 

oooooooooooooooh winthorpe!

 

Valentine!!!

[djfoly]

Coleman is that you?

[Gizmo]

Mabwele mabwele mabwele HA!

[djfoly]

its me Lionel Joseph from the african educayshahhn conference!