Guest rasteri Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 IMO you're better off producing on something that sounds as clean as possible, then using effects to add any grit you want. That way if you don't want the grit on a certain beat you don't have to have it. Also you can experiment with tape saturation, tube distortion VSTs etc which sound more musical than crushing everything to 12 bits. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHouse Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 I've used software successfully to make nice beats, but it takes too long, with too much thinking. I really want to make ish on the fly, so I'm in the market for an MPC 2500 and synth.Man I find the exact opposite. I spend far too long on MPCs just fighting the interface. Software I find way more intuitive and far more quick to navigate. Definitely hear you. I do all my chopping and drum kit prep on my PC, then move it over to the MPC (when I had a 500), and simply use it as an instrument. That said, I don't use the MPC interface much, nor make loops. I simply like banging away on the thing and creating live music. When I get an MPC 2500, I want to use it with Ableton to construct tracks though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d00ban Posted November 18, 2015 Author Share Posted November 18, 2015 Old MPCs do have some sonic traits, but it's not exactly the special sauce people claim. The 60 and 60II are 12 bit and that has some effect of course, particularly when you pitch down samples... plenty of grit, a bit more warmth and still reasonable clarity (compared to other 12 bit machines). The 3000 is about as gritty/saturated as any 16 bit machine ever gets whilst not trying to and gives everything a warmer sound. The 2000/2000XL doesn't really add any grit, but sounds smooth and solid witha bit more saturation. All these older models have a very slight EQ curve that slight boosts the kick drum type frequencies 90-130 say for argument's sake. The highest and lowest frequencies are rolled off a bit and and they have circuitry on the master stage that adds a bit of compression and subsequently kind of glues the sounds together. Additionally, there's something about the way they envelope short sounds or percussive bits that gives everything a bit more punch. For instance, when I used to record breaks into my 2kXL and play them back next to the sample, the sound from the MPC definitely sound punchier and slapped a bit harder. All this makes perfect sense when you think they were designed to be 'drum samplers'. One other thing I noticed is that these older ones don't have any kind of high pass facility which you'd normally employ on mid to high sounds. Although you are inevitably robbing from the overall mix and clarity, things like short stabby chops do sound that much more percussive when they aren't high passed (I've noticed this in software just as much). Other than that, it's just down to working practices really. And personally I'd take what I can do with software FX over the inherent sonic traits of any of these machines... just don't tell nobody All the Numark built ones since sound a bit brighter and harsher than the previous models and don't really add anything desirable to the sound IMO. They don't have th master compression circuitry either which is replaced witha compressor effect which really doesn't come close to my ears. Interesting. You gotta admit those drums bang hard from that vid though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ Rock Well Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 I must concede I totally forgot to watch it last night. I'll check it tonight. Generally I'd say be wary of MPC dudes on YouTube... a lot of them are full of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest petesasqwax Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 Over the years I've had a 2000XL (which I absolutely loved) and a 1000 with the JJ OS (which I liked a lot, but found a bit too small for my tree-trunk sized fingers). I am a HUGE advocate of the MPC and make no bones about that, BUT, as much as I often wish I had never sold it, I realise and accept that my method of working currently is far beyond anything I could have done on the MPC.As for Teh_Special_Sauce of the MPC - yes and know. Matt basically summed all that up perfectly so it's pointless going over that again (and I essentially agree with everything he said). What I would add, though, is that the REAL special sauce of the hip-hop that really got me started came from the SP12/1200 and the Akai s950 (and, if I'm honest, it was probably more the latter). The s950 was the first sampler I played with, ever. It had "that crunch" that people often associate with the the SP12/1200 which is synonymous with 12-bit sampling and, although I didn't realise it at the time, that was an aspect of "the hip-hop sound" which had become engrained in my brain. Another aspect was tape hiss, but I'll skip over that for now since it isn't really relevant to what we're talking about... When I started making music on a PC, there was always an extent to which it just didn't feel "right" to me. Something was missing and it wasn't just that I had no clue about reverb, compression etc. At some point I found a lofi plugin (called Bojo Lofi) which was a free download VST. I discovered that if you changed any of the settings it sounded fucking awful, but if you just ran it through with effectively no variables in operation it gave anything that went through it a hint of that characteristic "ring" that the s950 used to introduce. Obviously, I put it onto my drum bus immediately. I was one step closer, but I then realised that the drums on the music I liked had much more "punch" to it. I discovered compression (initially, I discovered WAY TOO FUCKING MUCH compression and every hi-hat I used turned into splashy mess of hiss... which I kinda dug for a minute) and I was another step closer again. Did that combination sound like an MPC60? Not completely, no, but it absolutely shat on the sound I'd been getting previously.Over the years I've managed to refine that approach into something which relies upon a handful of plugins which I've gotten to know REALLY fucking well. I realise and can accept at this point that I absolutely could not make the music I make sound the way it does without a computer (not necessarily with the plugins I use, as I'm sure I could find alternatives if I really needed to, but a using only a hardware sampler would make producing the music I make a serious ballache).Perhaps I tangented there... hope that was useful to somebody 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ Rock Well Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 IMO you're better off producing on something that sounds as clean as possible, then using effects to add any grit you want. That way if you don't want the grit on a certain beat you don't have to have it. Also you can experiment with tape saturation, tube distortion VSTs etc which sound more musical than crushing everything to 12 bits. I basically agree, although I would say that if all you like in life was say early 90s hip hop and don't want to hear or explore anything else, buying the right machine will get you there. Personally, I'd just get bored and reckon floppy discs can do one, but different strokes and all that. To carry on the MPC nerdery... Apart from the sounds the machine's made, I don't think people give the working practices involved enough credit. Like the MPC's famed timing - it is tight and the internal swing settings were very well judged, BUT... a lot of the fabled grooves actually came from the material being sampled and limitations of the onboard editing. Not so much when people sampled whole loops, but when they were slicing bits of drum breaks you often end up with a couple parts to a sound that were meant to be in a drum pattern of a slightly different tempo or swing to the track they are used in on the MPC, creating some push and/or pull in the groove. When this is applied over other samples with slightly differing rhythmic elements, the effect is magnified. Also, even with one shot drum hits, how much fresh air appears at the beginning of each hit and how it varies from sample to sample makes a big difference. Even though you can zoom in pretty tight on an MPC sample waveform, it's nothing like you can in software and on an SP it's all chopped by ear, no waveforms. The more you look at drums on a grid, the more you realise groove comes from variations in micro timings. That's what makes a great drummer great, staying really tight overall but being able to control those minute variations in timing. I hear a few sloppy drum tracks around at the moment on music where people are claiming it's "wonky" or "groove" but more often than not it's just messy. Listen to the drummers that people love to sample, from Jaki to Clyde to Zigaboo - even if they are one of the looser sounding drummers, the actual main notes they play/hit don't really stray too much, but they build immense grooves from variations in micro timings. Roger Linn knew this though, which it why MPCs don't actually quantize 100% (there's a test you can do which I won't go in to, but I did it and it worked)... I don't know exactly what percentage they use and it's more or less noticeable by the timing grid you select, but I reckon something like 95-98% is likely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHouse Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 Well, this is definitely giving me a lot to think about. I have the opportunity to buy my friends Maschine MK2, with the software, for a decent price, so pondering this possibility. I just like analog equipment though, so kinda hate being reliant, and chained up, to a computer. Arg, first world problems... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jam Burglar Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 I picked up a 2000xl a year or two ago and with 2-year old and all the other stuff I want to do (like scratch practice) I don't get to use it as much as I'd like, but I like it more than a DAW. I still use Cool Edit Pro for DAW multi-tracking. It was free and I have the waves plugins for it that were also free (all cracked/hacked) but it seems to do bascially what I want. I just don't like dealing with having to learn a whole new system so I never switched. The main reason I wanted an MPC was to bang out drums (I could never get chopped drums how I really wanted them using a DAW). Aside from the drums though, I've come to appreciate the all in one aspect of the 2000xl. I don't chop everything on it because it's way more time consuming than with a DAW but I definitely like it more for sequencing and whatnot. The main thing I like about the MPC is that it has it's own set of rules that you kind of have to work in and work around. That kind of pushes me to be creative. When things are just wide open like with a DAW, I can get bored and lose inspiration. Limitations add a challenge and that kind of gets me in a mindset of overcoming the obsticles. That's works well for me. The other thing about the MPC is that its pretty much set up for boom-bap sample-based hip hop. When you chop up your sample and play it out on the pads, there are overlaps and whanot that make things fit together. The 16 levels is there. You can mess around with the groove and quantize to get certain results, or turn it off for certian elements. The whole thing just works more "hands on" out of the box for me. I've never had an SP12 but I know they take it even further because it will pretty much force you to use really short samples. So, I think there's a lot of truth to the process having an effect on the end result. If you're already familiar with the process you can absolutely recreate that without an MPC, but starting with DAW then going backwards, there's lots I've learned from using the MPC. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest petesasqwax Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 For me, the absolutely no. 1 thing that the MPC - and all hardware samplers - have over a DAW is simply: they don't involve staring at a computer screen (often after spending a full day at work staring a computer screen, this is the absolute last thing I want to do...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHouse Posted November 18, 2015 Share Posted November 18, 2015 ^^^ That's it for me too; I'm already tethered to my computer enough through web design and f'n off on FB and forums. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d00ban Posted November 19, 2015 Author Share Posted November 19, 2015 I think Push and Machine kind of take care of that these days though no? Best of both worlds? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ Rock Well Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 I think Push and Machine kind of take care of that these days though no? Best of both worlds? Yep, exactly this for me Doob. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest petesasqwax Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 I like this idea - and this is exactly why I bought the APC - but I'm still not there yet. I basically use it change volume and effect levels and apply effects that I already have assigned to FX loops. Ostensibly, I use it like a mixing desk... which is under-using it in a big way, I know. I still don't know how I'd go about doing a lot of the other work without looking at the screen and employing a mouse (loading samples, editing them, copying and pasting, cropping envelopes etc. etc.)I've never used Maschine, though, and I understand it does it in a significantly more "in-the-box" fashion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d00ban Posted November 19, 2015 Author Share Posted November 19, 2015 Push 2 just came out too Pete. I got Push one and it's cool... but it's sampling capabilities weren't really up there. The new one has addressed this though and I gotta say it looks pretty dope! Writing harmonies on the push is super easy and intuitive though for sure... I'd prob trade mine in for a new one though if I didn't live in bloody South Korea where everything is 5 times as hard to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest petesasqwax Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 Dammit, I'm just about to watch a video for Push 2 and if it makes me decide that I absolutely need one I'm holding you entirely responsible! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d00ban Posted November 19, 2015 Author Share Posted November 19, 2015 He does a pretty good job with this one. This i obvs just the new features... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest petesasqwax Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 oh FFS... that looks SERIOUSLY fucking good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jam Burglar Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 (edited) He does a pretty good job with this one. This i obvs just the new features... That looks like something I could get into. Edited November 19, 2015 by Jam Burglar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chile Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 Max/MSP sometimes but on its own and not usually to make full compositions with. I tried to get my head around Max at uni, but it's too complicated for my puny brain. At uni I almost failed my first interactive technology class where we had to learn max. Made me want to throw the computer out the window a few times. For some reason (I think because the other choices were even shitter) I chose to do the sequel class, interactive technology 2 in my final year. Glad I did because after the initial hard times it finally seemed to click and I made a nice synth and got a good grade for the class. I recently bought a copy of Max 7 and now after a 3 year break from the program, I'm pretty much back to square one trying to remember what does what. Its defo not one of those things that's like learning to ride a bike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jreign711 Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 (edited) Ableton/Komplete mainly because it's so easy to get exactly what you want. Also use an OP-1 and Electribe Sampler when I get tired of looking at a computer screen. Recently got a JU-06 that I use with the Electribe. Sounds dope. Edited November 24, 2015 by jreign711 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest petesasqwax Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 Ah, the OP-1 looks dope! It's at a price point I just can't see myself being able to justify any time soon, but it does look absolutely awesome Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 if i was gonna buy anything musical again, it'd be an op1 and as a concept it use it solely and see what lil beats i could make. thats kinda my plan for when my knees properly give out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.