The "producer's mind"

[Steve]

An alternative title I was considering for this thread was, can you learn, or develop, the ability to be more creative?

 

I will describe my process of making a track, as an example of someone that I think does NOT have a producer's mind: -

 

I was listening to a hip-hop compilation (on vinyl) one day, when I got up and started doing some scratch drumming on a track that happened to be playing. I thought it sounded cool, but I pitched it way down (to about -20) and thought it sounded even cooler. I decided to try and make a track out of it, so I made the base of the track using scratched sections from that one song, then I added scratched hooks for the chorus using a Rakim acapella, I added a few other bits, but for the main meat of the track, i.e. the bits in between the choruses (excluding the intro), I was totally stuck and I remained stuck until I got frustrated and abandoned the track. I have never finished a single track that I have tried to solely create, and it's always for similar reasons.

 

To those who are producers and who have completed at least some tracks, what is your methodology? Do you just have this ability to come up with cool ideas? Let's say that someone was to send you a beat as the barebones of a track and you loved it. You might find that all kinds of ideas spring to mind when you listen to that beat. Is the ability to think of those ideas something that can be learned? Did you get better at this with experience? Do you think some of this is innate?

 

The short version = Explain your creative process for creating a track, as in, how you actually come up with the ideas, not the technical aspects.

[djdiggla]

Kinda like what I was saying in that other thread, I think part is natural talent but effort and hard work can often make up for talent.

 

I try and listen to songs and separate the parts, break it down but then I get ADD and end up thinking of sone random tangent. It's like when I play chess... I can only think a few moves ahead.

[djdiggla]

I guess I kinda missed the point of the thread... My creative method is try to listen to music similar to what I'm trying to do and one or two things very different and try and find similarities. Then I usually jot down some ideas which I usually don't use. Then I think about it over and over. Eventually get to the MPC or phrase looper and give it a got. Kinda fiddle around and try a few different things. It becomes a refining process then. The longer I have the better and more refined it gets. I write the same way-just a big throwup of everything at first. Then tune it.

[chile]

Yeah I think anyone can learn to be more creative.. A huge part of it IMO comes down to patience (i.e. how you handle the long periods of very slow development) and a light hearted attitude to stuff so the potentially frustrating aspects of the work become more managable. The more you develop patience the more immune you get to getting wound up about not being there yet, and thats needed since you can be in for the long haul when making something. Also lower your standards a bit when you work on things because a very high standard (perfectionism) can easily trigger frustration when things arent going smoothly (ive very rarely ever had a smooth ride making music, sometimes a single track takes a few months of on and off tinkering)..

 

If you start to get annoyed making something have a break and come back to it instead of trying to pummel through it as with me anyway i deplete my reserves trying to force things

 

 

this thread reminded me of a great john cleese talk on creativity actually -

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AU5x1Ea7NjQ

[waxdestroyer]

my next track will be a sampled beat from Cool C's "Juice Crew" Dis"..it will be simple in terms of creativity but i'll try to do some more complex cuts

 

Me and my gf just broke up so im a bit depressed and not in the mood to make music for a while, when i get my energy back to normal ill work on it and im by no means a good producer..most of my beats i dont like so they just stay on the shelves aka on my CF cards till i get some motivation to remix them

[waxdestroyer]

actually i cannot listen to any music at the moment, its quiet around the house till im over it then i slowly will enjoy doing music again..it takes time to heal and im not sure how much time i need..maybe weeks or even months..we had our problems and fights so in the long term she made the right descicion i guess..can't turn back time but i wish i'd done things differenty..i do have regrets we learn from our mistakes..i'll miss her

[Wax On]

Sorry to hear that bro.

 

I've never finished a real track, apart from a few beats with emcees if they count. I'm shit with the slow part of the process for sure, I guess I just feel like I should always be into what I'm doing, and I'm in a rush to get things satisfactory, but I always get to a "yeah that's close enough" type situation. I've got a lot to learn about music making.

 

Ultimately for me its a cathartic process, and I kind of like doing it when I'm feeling down, its a good way to express.

[Guest petesasqwax]

Likewise - sorry to hear that Jeff. I can appreciate that shit like that is tough to get through and affects all aspects of your life. Cool to see that you can be philosophical about it man.

My creative process basically comes from constantly listening to music with a kind of deconstructive approach, which is something I started doing when I first became interested in making music. I did a film degree and that kind of taught me to deconstruct films as I watch them in order to appreciate all the elements that go into making then. Far from killing my enjoyment of films, it only serves to heighten it - I can get a load out of what is a generally bad film if it has a really good camera man or cinematographer, or example. Likewise with music. It started when I first made mixes - I would listen out for tracks which sampled the same break or I would listen out to what the samples were and try to hear what the producer had done to the sample in order to make the beat. The more I did that, the more I started to develop my tastes so that whilst I initially knew what I liked, I began to understand more about why I liked what I liked. Through doing that I started to appreciate the kind of sounds I wanted to create in my head and then I just experimented with effects - trial and error - to attempt to get closer to that sound.

The first thing I did was to learn how to programme drums - I spent ages and ages just cutting up drum loops into their component hits and rearranging them to make new patterns. I guess I probably started by copying famous drum loops, recreating those using different loops that I had to hand. It helped me understand the basics of how drums were used in hip-hop and also the idea of 4-bar loops in rap tracks. After that I cut up instrumental breaks but it wasn't that long before I got bored of that because I never understood enough to be able to work out which loops went together. I didn't know musical theory so I didn't know what key a sample was in etc. As a result, I decided to get multisamples from stuff like Future Music magazine and built up a library of single note samples from all different kinds of instruments. Obviously it took me ages to learn how to get a single note sample to sound like the records my favourite producers would sample - trial and error on the effects again - but I wasn't bothered about how long it took me. I could hear that I was making progress so I just stuck at it.

Does that actually answer the question at all or did I go off on a random tangent?

[Steve]

Good posts gents!

 

Sorry to hear about your break up, Jeff.

[R Funksmith]

I'm not sure what the term "creative" actually means to be honest. I really feel like it more comes down to putting in work. If you have some false idea of "creativity" and are constantly wondering whether or not you "have" it, it becomes an excuse to not complete any projects.

 

...having thought about it for a moment, maybe creativity is similar to open-mindedness. So Steve, your original example, where you didn't know what to do with the 'main meat' of the track... it's possible you have a set of unexamined arbitrary assumptions about what is "allowed" when it comes to creating that part of the track. Perhaps the assumption that your track even needs that part whatsoever is arbitrary.

 

So maybe creativity is similar to an ability to overturn assumptions? An ability to have paradigm shifts? I know the point of this thread isn't to define creativity, but I think it might help. Because I do know of many people for whom "creativity" is this mystical amazing power that some few lucky people are born with, and I think that's bullshit. You just have to do the work.

[Steve]

Well, what I was wondering is, if people have the ability to kinda "hear" the track in their head, so they already know what they want it to sound like, then they set about making it. For me, it's more a case of fumbling around and shit happening almost by accident. I usually get as far as making the equivalent of the backing track, but then I get stuck when it comes to the "main melody", and because of that I've never finished anything.

[DJ Rock Well]

If could write or play music, I probably could just hear it, but I can't. Actually, I can head the odd thing, but that's not the same as playing it.

 

What I can do is make a good decision based on a selection of limited options - ie what's the best way I can arrange a bunch of samples or slices of samples that I've have.

 

Where I really lack, which seemed to be what you're saying here, is with the kind of inspired soloing you get from a trained musician. I mean I could make up something that's in key and technically right, but kind of dull and uninspired. Saying that though, lots of very respected producers do get session men in for those bits on there tracks anyway.

[Guest petesasqwax]

Assumptions - conventions - those are things I have most issues with. I started off making hip-hop and I could definitely "hear" what I wanted the track to sound like in my head as I was making it, but the issue I had was with the hook, verse, hook, verse structure. After spending so many years making tracks that conform to those notions, breaking myself out of that habit is immensely difficult and that's the biggest hurdle I find myself facing these days. Often I want to make tracks that develop in unexpected ways because those are some of the tracks I seem to enjoy most in terms of my listening habits, but having spent so long making tracks that conform to the accepted norms - i.e. copying the structure I heard in the tracks I was inspired by (generally, rap tracks or instrumentals by rap producers) I find it massively challenging to do so. It's going to be a long process. Unlearning, I guess, is what I'm trying to do now.

[chile]

Well, what I was wondering is, if people have the ability to kinda "hear" the track in their head, so they already know what they want it to sound like, then they set about making it. For me, it's more a case of fumbling around and shit happening almost by accident. I usually get as far as making the equivalent of the backing track, but then I get stuck when it comes to the "main melody", and because of that I've never finished anything.

 

I think more often than not, especially with us mostly (classically) untrained musicians, this is the way things work - that we hear a melody but dont know how to make it reality so have to learn more by doing and trying things out. There's a great Autechre interview I heard a while back that really illustrates this point succinctly.. One of the Autechre geezers mentions how their music is more process orientated, as opposed to idea orientated.. So they construct their music bit by bit in real time by listening to what sounds they're making, and experimenting around and following their aesthetic sense to continue down a certain path until somethings finished. They argue that the more popular academic taught methods of composition are more idea obsessed and because of this misses the point somewhat of what modern musics about, which isn't so pre defined, hasnt been scored, and often contains sounds which aren't recognizably melodic but more textural in nature. An idea based approach would be to have an idea and set about fulfilling that idea.. and in a sense it can make for a more frustrating process if youre not trained appropriately, and even then the sound you get will probably never be 100% spot on to whats in your head. Of course it helps to have some idea of what to go for though. There's obvious pros and cons to both approaches.

 

Heres the interview.. its in 2 parts, i think they go into what i mentioned in part 2, but the whole interviews worth checking out -

 

[waxdestroyer]

@Steve, Wax On & Pete

 

thanks, hard times right now..really tough after 2 years close relationship..hopefully around spring ill have my energy back to be back in business

[kut_class]

Ive alway been told I had a ear for music, hearing stuff n playing it back in a vaguely savant way come to think of it :-)

 

Like pete, I found hiphop got boring and have tried to move onto music that I just enjoy making. Like steve, it might start from a track ive just been listening to and ill copy the riff - I dont care anymore about the rules just as long as im banging my head im happy. Alot of times ill start in a particular genre put some layers together, but then find a killer sound. Ill save the track at that point, add the killer sound, strip the bits that dont fit, maybe change the drum pattern, tempo and genre. If im feeling it ill follow it. I spent a lot of hours flogging a dead dog that im just not feeling, so if I find something mid beat sesh even if it foesnt fit im happy to cut mu losses n work on that and normally that inspires me to keep going too. I do struggle to finish or make good structure and will kinda fall into the dnb / hiphop formula, but im also finding theres a bit of an art in making a really good scratch loop and just hitting that right is good fun too.

 

Working this way I find that I walk away feeling like ive had fun, rather than mad pressured to make something that other people like. I really do buzz when people like my beats as the process for me is quiet personal. It's a bit poxy but they say art is the process not the finished piece.

[Guest petesasqwax]

likewise - I make the music that I want to hear, but it's immensely gratifying when that resonates with other people too.

 

I know what you're saying about the art being the process, not the finished piece, but I also appreciate that's hard for outsiders to get with sometimes when I spend all day at working look at a computer screen drinking coffee... then I come home, spend a few hours with the family and go back to looking at a (different) computer screen and drinking more coffee.

[assemblyworker]

I find that when I hit barriers then the main cause is my lack of ability to properly create harmony or create rich synth sounds from scratch. I deal with this by cunting around on a piano and going to a choir...... I'm aiming to study some counterpoint over the summer so that should help.

 

 

Maybe if I spent less time banging drum machines and teaching I'd make more progress. I'm not going to be too hard on myself though, Easter is coming up and I have a nearly finished EP which should sound decent (at least better than anything I've worked on before).

 

 

I do tend to think that I might have been better off learning a proper instrument rather than scratching records.... Probably not the coolest thing to say on here and who knows, I might of ended up playing guitar in some really shit sounding band instead.....

 

 

Is creativity different from having some form of obsessive behaviour syndrome? My therapist doesn't know, stupid cunt.

[DJ Rock Well]

Beauty therapists are notoriously clueless.

[Guest petesasqwax]

I do tend to think that I might have been better off learning a proper instrument rather than scratching records.... Probably not the coolest thing to say on here and who knows, I might of ended up playing guitar in some really shit sounding band instead.....

 

Stupidly I neglected to learn any musical instruments when I was younger and am now trying to catch up by doing a lot of work on musical theory. It's amazing though - the difference it is making to the tunes I'm doing right now is immense. Plus it's really liberating creatively as I'm just playing in melodies and chords etc. and working things out as I go rather than relying on working out what sample goes with what and what key they're both in

[Jacken]

my thoughts is exactly what Chile said. I guess that patience is the key. when you need to finish something there is always a boring part in it, so it's hard to not skip it and start a new thing.