Innate ability and improvement via practice/learning

[Steve]

When it comes to just scratching, how would you rate your level of innate ability? I know it's not easy to quantify, but I was just wondering how you guys would rate yourselves, in terms of how quickly you were able to progress when first starting out.

Likewise, when it comes to practicing, how would you rate your progress over the years? Did you struggle at first and progress slowly? Did you initially progress quickly, but hit a plateaux that you found hard to break through?

I would say that my own innate ability is just average. When it comes to practicing/learning over time, I think I hit a plateaux at a relatively low level compared to other DJs in the scratch scene - not DJs in general - and found it hard to push beyond that, although I also fell out of love with scratching and stopped practicing with any real focus, compared to when I first started where I absolutely loved it and would scratch daily and actually try and learn new techniques. If I had continued to feel the same passion for scratching over the years though, I don't think I would have progressed all that much further, honestly.

 

[Deft]

I think I'm pretty talentless when it comes to music and natural aptitude for scratchy hands. However, I am a big believer in the idea that practice makes perfect. But my regret for scratching is that I never practiced "properly" and never focussed on improving specific skills. So I've spent thousands of hours on turntables but mostly meandering around not getting better after improving for a few years in the late 90s. It's never too late to sharpen the skills but I haven't got some big drive to do it now.

 

 

[Mista_Ed]

id say my natural / innate ability is quite high and my ability to learn things by practice, quite low.

I don't think I've ever actually learnt any scratches by instructions or tutorials - I find it almost impossible to learn in that way tbh

I use the decks once in a blue moon these days, but still scratch maybe once a week for a little while just for fun - I've not learnt any "new" cuts for well over 15 years tho, so am absolutely plateaued at the point I'm at with no sign of improving / developing at all

[Steve]

On 10/29/2021 at 3:37 PM, Deft said:

However, I am a big believer in the idea that practice makes perfect.

I'm definitely not a believer in "blank slatism", as in, any of us here could become as good as Qbert, D-Styles, IQ, or whoever, if we only put the work in. I'm not sure if that's what you think either, but I think some people have the right combination of a high innate ability and a very high plateaux, but those people are very rare.

[Deft]

I do think there is a natural aptitude / genetic component - but most people do not practice enough or compete at that kind of level for where that will be the deciding factor. The average person putting in 10x the effort will still likely smash the natural lazy genius.

I see this with running a lot (OMG the Reddit /running sub is painful). People claiming they are at genetic disadvantage for running. These fuckers are not elite athletes but they reckon they can't run quicker than a 10 min mile because of some poor genetics. No, you're just overweight and out of shape. You might not make it to top 0.1% of competitors but these people aren't doing the volume or correct type of training they need to even find out.

[Steve]

It's true that people will often make excuses for their poor performance for sure, rather than having a more positive and kind of aggressive "I'm gonna get there" attitude with it. I still think innate ability has a large effect though, even though it's impossible to quantify accurately.

At high school, for example, I was good at maths. I got put into a small group that did the maths O level in 1 year instead of 2 and got an A. I was not a good student though. I hated homework. I did very little revising. I was a lazy fucker when it came to that stuff, cos once I was outside of school I didn't want anything to do with it. There is no way that you could say that me being well above average at maths (at that level) was the result of me working hard at it, so where did that come from? It's not like I'm a maths genius, lol, cos when I went to university and took a couple of advanced maths courses, then I felt like I really had to put work in even just to tread water, but up to a certain level I found it way easier than 95% of other students did.

I've seen discussions on this regarding competitive gaming too, which obviously requires hand/eye co-ordination, just like scratching does, and while there are people that argue that it's all about practice, I am yet to see any examples of really good players who sucked or were just average at first and got better through practice and sheer hard work. They were all well above average even when they first started playing.

I think that if you took 100 non-DJs and made them follow the same scratch practice regime, for the exact same amount of hours per week, after 1,000 hours you would see a very noticeable difference between the best and the worst.

[djdiggla]

On 10/28/2021 at 4:13 PM, Steve said:

When it comes to just scratching, how would you rate your level of innate ability? I know it's not easy to quantify, but I was just wondering how you guys would rate yourselves, in terms of how quickly you were able to progress when first starting out.

Likewise, when it comes to practicing, how would you rate your progress over the years? Did you struggle at first and progress slowly? Did you initially progress quickly, but hit a plateaux that you found hard to break through?

I would say that my own innate ability is just average. When it comes to practicing/learning over time, I think I hit a plateaux at a relatively low level compared to other DJs in the scratch scene - not DJs in general - and found it hard to push beyond that, although I also fell out of love with scratching and stopped practicing with any real focus, compared to when I first started where I absolutely loved it and would scratch daily and actually try and learn new techniques. If I had continued to feel the same passion for scratching over the years though, I don't think I would have progressed all that much further, honestly.

 

Kinda similar. Middling natural ability. Not amazing but not horrendous. Struggled to progress despite putting loads of time in especially the first few years. Hit a fairly low plateaux and never really surpassed it. Need to get back into practicing regularly but also feel like whats the point. Not like I'm suddenly going to be able to surpass my past roadblocks. That said I've also wondered if I just made a mistake by choosing to scratch left handed. I'm right handed but left handed is what felt natural. I've toyed a little with switching hands but it really is starting from scratch... particularly my left hand on the fader. 

[Jon]

bleurgh - i wrote a long reply and accidently hit 'back' on my browser

 

- I think everyone learns at different speeds but consistency of showing up to practice, having genuine enthusiasm to learn, self awareness/understanding of where you're at and what to learn next or some guidance to point you in the right direction is the key.

[Jon]

I wasn't naturally good at scratching, and was a very slow learner - but scratching was also my first instrument, so I was learning about rhythm, timing, basic music theory at the same time as trying to work out the hand coordination and muscle memory etc. I was really disciplined at putting the hours in and having lots of great feedback from people with experience here and on other forums was so useful.

 

While I wasn't naturally good at scratching, I think by going through that learning experience, I'm able to be more natural as a learner of other musical things or other creative pursuits, but I'm def a put in the hours and see results sort of person rather than being instantly great at something

[mfsop]

The secret to success? Being too dumb to quit.

More important than talent is motivation, enough spare time, tenacity and humbleness. Constantly looking for things to improve and taking the time to work on it versus just drilling away mindlessly. These traits are most important to me - even talented DJs had to work hard to develop their skills.

Innate ability is hard to determine - how much has been learned at a young age (being surrounded by musicians, dancing, singing...)? Are there other hobbies (like building ships in a bottle) that have led to fine motor skills and such things?

In the end, you are who you are, so if you want to do something, just do it. Pondering about how much talent you have and if somebody learns faster doesn't help a whole lot.

[djdiggla]

5 hours ago, mfsop said:

In the end, you are who you are, so if you want to do something, just do it. Pondering about how much talent you have and if somebody learns faster doesn't help a whole lot.

I remember when A-Track won the DMC and the story was how he just trained really hard for a year. So I did the same with the same goal. Was a dropout. Didnt' have a steady GF or kids or anything taking time away. Just a job cooking which wasn't too time intensive. Year 1 came and went and I was nowhere near my goals. Then year two. Then a little into year three I more or less gave up on the dream. Clearly wasn't going to happen no matter how much practice went into it. More practice would make be better but it never was gonna make me great. Possibly if I had started younger or had better ways to learn than watching VHS tapes it would have been different... but TBH it felt like innate talent was something I was lacking and practice all I want there was still going to be a hump I could never get over.  

[TBearOne8III]

i gave up on trying to master cuts years ago.  really it was just not making time to actually practice learning cuts. the only people who care about what your cuts sound like or even what your mixes sound like are other dj's. the average listener dosent care. So I just do what feels natural.  i spent more time trying to be good at mixing and selection. hell, for the past 2 years i've been forcing myself to use my right hand on the record.  before, i had both decks on the left side of the mixer.  the left hand on the fader is just awkward to me, but i think im adjusting well.  i keep telling myself im going to start practicing scratching but it never happens.  im lucky to get 2 hours of time on the turntables a week. so i cram as much recording that i can in that little bit of time. so there is no practice, everything is trial by fire.  

[djdiggla]

Yeah I've no time to straight practice anymore so just try and enjoy the time I have doing what's fun. In that vein been trying to improve and tighten up older or less technical scratches like scribbles, tears, transforms... Things that might not wow a turntablists but that I can do confidently in a mix. That said, constant fast chirps really bust my balls.

[jeljms]

Good topic.

I'm not going to talk about my own scratching (in)ability but there was something interesting that I heard about, which is a willingness for hard work itself being a talent. It was something Alex Ferguson used to try and drum in to his players and that he would also look for in his players - that willingness to go the extra mile and practise more.

Sorry for using a football example, but look at Cristiano Ronaldo. He is obviously phenomenally talented but I'd doubt he's among the 100 most talented footballers that ever lived so if talent was the only measure of greatness, he'd still likely be a very good player and a fine talent. But his drive and determination to improve is arguably as great as any footballer and that is why he'd be in most people's top 10 of the greatest footballers that has ever lived. His will/talent for improvement is what has made him extraordinary.

For me - natural ability/talent + application/drive to improve is what likely equals greatnesw but I don't know that first hand because I have neither!

[mfsop]

17 hours ago, djdiggla said:

Possibly if I had started younger or had better ways to learn than watching VHS tapes it would have been different... but TBH it felt like innate talent was something I was lacking and practice all I want there was still going to be a hump I could never get over.  

Yeah, who knows - thanks for sharing that story, by the way!

I believe that A-Trak also played piano for a couple of years which is a massive head start (assuming you didn't play another instrument, too). The piano helps to build fine motor skills, thinking in phrases, developing rhythmic accuracy... Then the whole process of how to practice is completely different if you take classical lessons (slow, metronome, always working on details). Compare that to how most DJs I know learned at first (me included): trying to mimic all the crazy things on videos at full speed without any idea about music theory and realizing the advantages of really slowing down, observing and improving your scratching.

[Jam Burglar]

I would say my natural ability on the cut is mediocre at best.  I would put my overall skill at scratching at slightly above average based solely on consistent practice over a long period of time.  

One thing I don't hear a lot of people talk about is many hours of practice crammed into a small chunk of time.  It's these guys who practice 5 hours a day for a few years that really seem to take off.  I've definitely seen glimpses of that in my progression.  In the early 2000s I was maybe doing 1-2 hours a day and that lead to speed and tightness that I don't get from my 15-45 minute sessions these days.

I'm maybe in the minority in that I almost never go more than a few days without touching the decks, and I've been scratching for over 2 decades.  I've steadily progressed overall but if I dedicate a lot of time in a short period I can hear it in my cuts.  If I stop, I lose some of that speed/tightness/smoothness.  

[djdiggla]

6 hours ago, jeljms said:

Good topic.

I'm not going to talk about my own scratching (in)ability but there was something interesting that I heard about, which is a willingness for hard work itself being a talent. It was something Alex Ferguson used to try and drum in to his players and that he would also look for in his players - that willingness to go the extra mile and practise more.

Sorry for using a football example, but look at Cristiano Ronaldo. He is obviously phenomenally talented but I'd doubt he's among the 100 most talented footballers that ever lived so if talent was the only measure of greatness, he'd still likely be a very good player and a fine talent. But his drive and determination to improve is arguably as great as any footballer and that is why he'd be in most people's top 10 of the greatest footballers that has ever lived. His will/talent for improvement is what has made him extraordinary.

For me - natural ability/talent + application/drive to improve is what likely equals greatnesw but I don't know that first hand because I have neither!

They call that the "Mamba Mentality" in basketball. Reference to Kobe who is known for his work ethic. To be fair all the greats have that same ethic but he was in the spotlight and a big market player so gets the notoriety. 

[djmikec]

I think that - like you said - material improvement comes mostly from focused and deliberate practice.  As far as innate ability: I think that what I used to consider an innate ability I had, was really just personal drive, love for what I was doing, and the influence of those that came before me.