CRT TVs for gaming

[jeljms]

What are your thoughts on these? Is it worth picking one of these up to play video games on? Are they generally better than digital TVs in terms of picture quality?

[Deft]

Surely only (potentially) true for old consoles? Or is there some boutique industry making massive CRTs still? I think I'd take a modern 4K OLED TV instead. 

[jeljms]

Yeah, sorry @Deft, I should have been clearer. I was talking about for playing old console games (SNES, Megadrive, etc).

[Deft]

Ah OK. Yeah I remember reading something about this, and I know on the mini consoles / emulators they have modes to try to recreate that magic. I guess there's some technical truth about optimisation for that type of video output. I tend towards modern convenience rather than truthful modelling of the past. Plus, even with max nostalgia I've never sunk much time into all my mini consoles. PS5 and Switch are better....

[Steve]

You can get some good adapters that will not only convert the output to HDMI, but also improve it. Here's one example: -

https://videogameperfection.com/products/open-source-scan-converter/

I have very little knowledge about these products though, so I don't know what the best options are to get. I think that's the way I would go though, rather than buying a CRT TV.

Maybe @Mista_Ed can help with this, as I know he likes his retro games, but perhaps he's using a CRT, I dunno.

[scottie(the)goonie]

The interlacing is smoother on CRTs for those old NES type games.  It's not enough for me to go out and buy one.  If you're using an emulator, the graphics are handled differently and looks good on a PC monitor.  Not sure how good or bad it will look on a large OLED TV, but I have a LG C9 OLED and I can say that frame judder is pretty crappy at 24 frames.  Huge downfall of OLED.

[jeljms]

Thanks for the replies.

I guess it's a space vs cost issue as I can probably pick up a decent-enough CRT monitor for under £100 and then it would be plug n play with a SNES or megadrive or I could spend over £100 on what looks like a very smart device in the OSSC (probably about £130 all in) and then have cleverer options on what I can do with the picture quality that I'll probably never use. A CRT TV though is just a cumbersome thing so not sure I've got the space for it...

[Deft]

I remember us getting a massive CRT TV in our shared Uni house, must have been 2002-ish. It was maybe 36" but the weight and footprint of that thing was fucking ridiculous. Took 3 of us to carry it up 4 flights of stairs.

[djdiggla]

Yes they are good for retro gaming. The picture gets fucked when you go from old connects (V-RCA or coax) to HDMI. Even if you are going from old RCA to new TV with RCA it's going to look off... some systems just the coloring but others it's complete crap. Of my retro systems I use the SNES the most so bought one of these from Kickstarter and very happy with it. Rest of my stuff run into the VCR or a old video game selector box. Both work ok but would be better... also keep in mind getting a CRT will be proper proportions and not stretched which is nice. If you get one IMO the hands down best is a Sony Trinitron. I just got my old bedroom CRT down from the attic for this same thing... but now you got me itching for a Trinitron! 

[scottie(the)goonie]

^The Triniton was the last of the best CRT's and I think they were 16:9 as well.

Side @jeljms if you're into PC gaming at all, the modern ray-tracing graphics cards (RTX 20 and 30 series) can perform well on none other than... cathode ray tube TV's.  Some youtuber did a comparison.  If you can output a modern ray-tracing game to a CRT, the fidelity is amazing even at low-resolution.  I'd buy a CRT myself just to try this out.

[djnumnuts]

Shout at Rasteri as well.

 

[Jam Burglar]

What Dirk is saying is right.  You get all sorts of issues when trying to convert an image that was built to be played on a CRT displayed in an newer, non-CRT monitor.  The old systems tend to run and look better on the CRT monitors.  The image size doesn't get distorted, the black levels tend to be better on CRTs.  Lag time is another reason a lot of gamers like to use CRTs because they don't introduce any noticeable lag.  

Then you get into optimizing the images beyond how they were back in the day by using s-video, RGB output,  etc.  It's a whole rabbit hole.  The Sony PVM and BVM models are favorites for gamers because they are commercial grade and some will do RGB input.  In the realm of actual, commercial arcade games, the vast majority of serious collectors wouldn't ever think of using anything but a CRT monitor.  Almost all arcade games used RGB signals and that's one reason they looked better than the home systems, which all used composite signals.  So now you have people modding the home systems to try to get them to look more like arcade games and converting the composite to RGB definitely makes and improvement.  It gets pretty deep.

The other thing you can do is get a system that plays old-school carts but outputs a high-res digital image.  I recently picked up an Analogue NT and that makes my classic NES games look soooo much sharper and cleaner than they originally looked on a CRT.  The only thing is they cost like $500.  The die-hard gamers still seem to prefer the CRTs though.

What it really comes down to is, how much do you care?  It's very cheap and easy to hook your Atari or NES up to your modern TV as long as you can live with the picture looking kind of wacked.  Once you start trying to get the best possible image out of the system, things get crazy.  I tell people the same thing about arcade games.  If you want to play Donkey Kong exactly how it was in the arcade, then you can't beat a real machine.  Emulation is not duplication.  But if all you want to do is casually play a game or two of Donkey Kong once in a while and want to be able to do the same with a ton of other games, then just play them on your computer for free.

[jeljms]

1 hour ago, Jam Burglar said:

What Dirk is saying is right.  You get all sorts of issues when trying to convert an image that was built to be played on a CRT displayed in an newer, non-CRT monitor.  The old systems tend to run and look better on the CRT monitors.  The image size doesn't get distorted, the black levels tend to be better on CRTs.  Lag time is another reason a lot of gamers like to use CRTs because they don't introduce any noticeable lag.  

Then you get into optimizing the images beyond how they were back in the day by using s-video, RGB output,  etc.  It's a whole rabbit hole.  The Sony PVM and BVM models are favorites for gamers because they are commercial grade and some will do RGB input.  In the realm of actual, commercial arcade games, the vast majority of serious collectors wouldn't ever think of using anything but a CRT monitor.  Almost all arcade games used RGB signals and that's one reason they looked better than the home systems, which all used composite signals.  So now you have people modding the home systems to try to get them to look more like arcade games and converting the composite to RGB definitely makes and improvement.  It gets pretty deep.

The other thing you can do is get a system that plays old-school carts but outputs a high-res digital image.  I recently picked up an Analogue NT and that makes my classic NES games look soooo much sharper and cleaner than they originally looked on a CRT.  The only thing is they cost like $500.  The die-hard gamers still seem to prefer the CRTs though.

What it really comes down to is, how much do you care?  It's very cheap and easy to hook your Atari or NES up to your modern TV as long as you can live with the picture looking kind of wacked.  Once you start trying to get the best possible image out of the system, things get crazy.  I tell people the same thing about arcade games.  If you want to play Donkey Kong exactly how it was in the arcade, then you can't beat a real machine.  Emulation is not duplication.  But if all you want to do is casually play a game or two of Donkey Kong once in a while and want to be able to do the same with a ton of other games, then just play them on your computer for free.

Yep, that's it in a nutshell, Jam. I have the memory of the way the games looked when I played them in the 90s and having played them on modern TVs, there is such an obvious difference in the way they look that I thought the easiest way would be to pick up a CRT and not need to faff about with all the conversion nonsense. Trying to recreate scanlines or optimise the picture through a bunch of more complicated modern tech sort of seems overkill to me and likely to be more expensive than picking up a second-hand CRT, especially when the one I used to play megadrive games on was a pretty ropey 14" Bush TV in the first place!

[Mista_Ed]

On 4/26/2021 at 8:21 AM, Steve said:

You can get some good adapters that will not only convert the output to HDMI, but also improve it. Here's one example: -

https://videogameperfection.com/products/open-source-scan-converter/

I have very little knowledge about these products though, so I don't know what the best options are to get. I think that's the way I would go though, rather than buying a CRT TV.

Maybe @Mista_Ed can help with this, as I know he likes his retro games, but perhaps he's using a CRT, I dunno.

yo - just seen this tag now

probably wont be much help with this tbh, as I'm rocking a modern flatscreen these days.  that said, I used to big old CRT for years and years with both the Megadrive, Snes and PS1. 

I guess it really depends on what you're wanting to play and which consoles / systems / machines you have? 

I am an avid megadrive / genesis collector - so I've got myself a "mega sg" by Analogue.

 

its a modern day, FPGA Megadrive, which outputs HMDI - its customizable in every possible way from graphics to sound - there's basically nothing you cant tweak - so this works well for me having lots of physical games. so much easier than fucking about with yet another screen / CRT etc, its absolutely awesome.

the same company also make a super Nintendo equivalent (super NT), which will most certainly, be just as excellent as the mega sg.....I don't really own enough super Nintendo carts to warrant spending on one of these atm - they're pretty fuckin expensive....but it depends on what sorta "level" you're into the game, I guess. You can update the firmware on both sg and nt  to play roms from an SD card too...

what are you looking to play @jeljms?

[jeljms]

11 hours ago, Mista_Ed said:

yo - just seen this tag now

probably wont be much help with this tbh, as I'm rocking a modern flatscreen these days.  that said, I used to big old CRT for years and years with both the Megadrive, Snes and PS1. 

I guess it really depends on what you're wanting to play and which consoles / systems / machines you have? 

I am an avid megadrive / genesis collector - so I've got myself a "mega sg" by Analogue.

 

its a modern day, FPGA Megadrive, which outputs HMDI - its customizable in every possible way from graphics to sound - there's basically nothing you cant tweak - so this works well for me having lots of physical games. so much easier than fucking about with yet another screen / CRT etc, its absolutely awesome.

the same company also make a super Nintendo equivalent (super NT), which will most certainly, be just as excellent as the mega sg.....I don't really own enough super Nintendo carts to warrant spending on one of these atm - they're pretty fuckin expensive....but it depends on what sorta "level" you're into the game, I guess. You can update the firmware on both sg and nt  to play roms from an SD card too...

what are you looking to play @jeljms?

You know, this had passed me by completely! Thanks man! It would be Megadrive games mostly so this would fit the bill perfectly. I've just watched some reviews of it and it gets a lot of love. I like that it is basically the original hardware reconstructed and modernised rather than emulation. The only problems are the price, stock (they don't seem to have any) and location. I'm UK based but it looks like they are US based. They do a European model but I'd be a bit worried about import taxes on top of the hardware costs. Hmmm.... looks like a great option, though and I wouldn't need a CRT with this. Decisions, decisions...

[Mista_Ed]

7 hours ago, jeljms said:

You know, this had passed me by completely! Thanks man! It would be Megadrive games mostly so this would fit the bill perfectly. I've just watched some reviews of it and it gets a lot of love. I like that it is basically the original hardware reconstructed and modernised rather than emulation. The only problems are the price, stock (they don't seem to have any) and location. I'm UK based but it looks like they are US based. They do a European model but I'd be a bit worried about import taxes on top of the hardware costs. Hmmm.... looks like a great option, though and I wouldn't need a CRT with this. Decisions, decisions...

right yeh - they sell out super fast......you gotta be on the ball with new stock, without a doubt. I got mine on the first run on pre order....but they're only ebay now for crazy monies

that said, its the absolute ultimate MD experience with modern equipment - its without a doubt the best option - but I hear ya about import / tax etc - I got mine shipped to fuckin new zealand mate....cant get any more expensive, tbh....but its totally worth it - for me personally, anyway. 

Its still emulation in a sense - although the part that's emulated, is the machine itself - as opposed to the game. regardless...its truly an amazing piece of kit - very, very solid build, feels like it'll last a lifetime and hosts every possible feature you might ever need in terms of tweaking settings - and with the firmware jailbreak, you can play shit from the SD slot - which is what I basically do all the time now...none of the carts even come off the shelf anymore so it keeps my collection pristine

I grabbed a couple of these wireless controllers from Retrobit as well - so I'm hopefully set for life haha. these controllers have been fine so far, prob nearly 2 years of use....but I've heard some people say theirs have broken, but it seems like it was the initial batch that had some manufacturing issues with the Dpads. the 8bitdo MD wireless pads are built like tanks and people rave about those, too....but the Retrobit ones are more like the OG pad releases /officially licensed, which to me feels a bit more 'genuine'

you could also look at the hyperkin systems if you wanted something cheaper?

hear they're also pretty good, and very cost friendly!!! 

https://www.hyperkin.com/megaretron-hd-gaming-console-for-genesis-mega-drive-hyperkin.html

outputs only at 720p I think - but really, would you even notice? unlike the Mega SG, the hyperkin systems ARE emulating the games...so there's likely to be slight annoyances with this here and there if you're deep enough into the games to notice, I suppose.

Even the Megadrive Mini released by Sega last year has emulation issues on games like Thunderforce 3 (sprite flickering an shit) which basically makes it VERY challenging if you're used to it playing properly...if you're a casual gamer you'd be unlikely to detect any issues - if you're a hard core Megadrive nerd, then you probably would  

how many games you got dude? I've been collecting on and off since they were first released...im up to just shy of 300 games now....pretty much all killer, not much filler - I'm down to about 20 games I really want....then I'm done.

shits expensive these days, I got most of my collection about 15 -20 years ago and snagged most titles for a couple of quid each on ebay - not a chance now....sheesh. the last on my list are gonna cost me a small fortune - but hey - I don't have kids, so I've gotta spend my money on something, right? 

[Mista_Ed]

....u could always get a mister or retropi set up too? 

Mister is also FPGA , but multiple cores / systems can be installed. it all looks like a bit too much work for me as it needs a fair amount of tinkering and set up...

 

[jeljms]

1 hour ago, Mista_Ed said:

right yeh - they sell out super fast......you gotta be on the ball with new stock, without a doubt. I got mine on the first run on pre order....but they're only ebay now for crazy monies

that said, its the absolute ultimate MD experience with modern equipment - its without a doubt the best option - but I hear ya about import / tax etc - I got mine shipped to fuckin new zealand mate....cant get any more expensive, tbh....but its totally worth it - for me personally, anyway. 

Its still emulation in a sense - although the part that's emulated, is the machine itself - as opposed to the game. regardless...its truly an amazing piece of kit - very, very solid build, feels like it'll last a lifetime and hosts every possible feature you might ever need in terms of tweaking settings - and with the firmware jailbreak, you can play shit from the SD slot - which is what I basically do all the time now...none of the carts even come off the shelf anymore so it keeps my collection pristine

I grabbed a couple of these wireless controllers from Retrobit as well - so I'm hopefully set for life haha. these controllers have been fine so far, prob nearly 2 years of use....but I've heard some people say theirs have broken, but it seems like it was the initial batch that had some manufacturing issues with the Dpads. the 8bitdo MD wireless pads are built like tanks and people rave about those, too....but the Retrobit ones are more like the OG pad releases /officially licensed, which to me feels a bit more 'genuine'

you could also look at the hyperkin systems if you wanted something cheaper?

hear they're also pretty good, and very cost friendly!!! 

https://www.hyperkin.com/megaretron-hd-gaming-console-for-genesis-mega-drive-hyperkin.html

outputs only at 720p I think - but really, would you even notice? unlike the Mega SG, the hyperkin systems ARE emulating the games...so there's likely to be slight annoyances with this here and there if you're deep enough into the games to notice, I suppose.

Even the Megadrive Mini released by Sega last year has emulation issues on games like Thunderforce 3 (sprite flickering an shit) which basically makes it VERY challenging if you're used to it playing properly...if you're a casual gamer you'd be unlikely to detect any issues - if you're a hard core Megadrive nerd, then you probably would  

how many games you got dude? I've been collecting on and off since they were first released...im up to just shy of 300 games now....pretty much all killer, not much filler - I'm down to about 20 games I really want....then I'm done.

shits expensive these days, I got most of my collection about 15 -20 years ago and snagged most titles for a couple of quid each on ebay - not a chance now....sheesh. the last on my list are gonna cost me a small fortune - but hey - I don't have kids, so I've gotta spend my money on something, right? 

Great info mate - I'll have a look at some of those. Re the games, here's the thing... I had about 50 or so plus an original mk1 Megadrive but I got rid of them all a few years ago when I moved house and when my kids were really little. They're a bit older now and my son is getting into video games (obviously he doesn't give a shit about retro gaming but he's happy to play on my Xbox360, which is currently what I'm playing Megadrive games on via the Megadrive classics release which had about 40 games from the back catalogue and attempts to do some smoothing of the graphics on modern TVs but that looks a bit like a wax layer has been applied) so I would effectively be starting again from scratch. So it's possibly cheapest for me to pick up a CRT for 50-100 quid and then a cheap megadrive, which is still possible by the looks of it... but I've noticed the games on all systems have definitely gone up in price over the past few years. I did think about just getting a mini megadrive for reasons of space but there are some games that aren't on there that I would still love to play. I'm a massive procrastinator when it comes to this sort of thing. Anyway, thanks for all the really useful info - I'll check out the other options you mention as well and then attempt to make a decision!

[jeljms]

1 hour ago, Mista_Ed said:

....u could always get a mister or retropi set up too? 

Mister is also FPGA , but multiple cores / systems can be installed. it all looks like a bit too much work for me as it needs a fair amount of tinkering and set up...

 

I'm definitely more interested in plug n play systems. I know I'm not going to start faffing around with set ups as I don't have the time or inclination in the same way I don't with midi mapping.

It's also why I'm wondering if the mega sd (amazing as it looks) might even be overkill for my needs - because I'd probably just stick with the default settings, in which case why not just get an original megadrive? 

[Mista_Ed]

51 minutes ago, jeljms said:

I'm definitely more interested in plug n play systems. I know I'm not going to start faffing around with set ups as I don't have the time or inclination in the same way I don't with midi mapping.

It's also why I'm wondering if the mega sd (amazing as it looks) might even be overkill for my needs - because I'd probably just stick with the default settings, in which case why not just get an original megadrive? 

yeh - well - theres that! the biggest advantage of the SG is the great quality scaling / HDMI output for me....i def dont wanna fuck with a CRT these days, its just too much hassle

OG megadrives are still cheap to pick up - games definitely aren't. especially if you're after anything that's even slightly popular or ""rare"". sorry to hear you got rid of your collection.....it would be a nightmare to rebuild in this market, with prices at all time highs

if you're more interested in playing as opposed to collecting physical games...then an everdrive is likely the best way forward - whichever system or format you go with. I can definitely recommend a flash cart of some sort in your case - the everdrive by krikkz is awesome, but again....its expensive....there are plenty of cheap Chinese clone knock offs that do the job, which would suit the purpose though (linked below)

ive had one of these before - which is HMDI as well: 

its a chinese clone console with HDMI - i used one of these for about a year before I got the SG and its actually pretty sick - inexpensive and is a decent experience overall - only plays USA region and JPN region games, mind you. under 40 quid to the UK, maybe?

if you really wanted to go down the CRT route - OG megadrive and a flash cart, so you can avoid spending a shit load on games (and of course, have every game you want to play)

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33010196785.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.344f170dZpPwvd&algo_pvid=11ee4134-00a0-4a53-b002-e2c6fa9d9b06&algo_expid=11ee4134-00a0-4a53-b002-e2c6fa9d9b06-1&btsid=0b0a556816209594480417227e7387&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_,searchweb201603_

not sure what the exchange rate is - but should be under 20 quid for this cartridge.

I owned one of these very ones before as well, coupled with the clone HMDI JPN Megadrive above - - - good combo and did the job just fine!! its really what sealed the deal in terms of moving from traditional, to HMDI format....its just so much easier 

happy to help you out with any questions too - this is really my 'area of expertise'...so hit me up anytime

 

 

[djdiggla]

https://www.wired.com/story/crt-tube-tv-hot-gaming-tech-retro-games/

 

Get em while you can. Wired just posted an article so now every hipster is gonna go out and buy one. 

[Jam Burglar]

Meanwhile, dumb mofos have been trashing CRTs in arcade games to "uprgrade" to LCD screens for over a decade now because they're too lazy to recap the monitors.  All the while the price of monitors has multiplied.