Selling beats...

[JHouse]

Any of you doots sell your beats to rappers and such, or plan on getting into the industry? This has been something I've been considering for years, but didn't really know where to start. So, I've been doing a grip of research, especially over the last year (especially last month), and subsequently found some serious solid resources for offing beats/tracks to up and coming lyricists. If there's any interest, I'll share said gems.

 

I've come to a fork in the road where I could focus on designing and developing websites for dentists and plastic surgeons, but I have no interest in either market. I've been creating sites for all sorts of industries since 1996, however, it's not really profitable if you're not focused on a specific niche. Therefore, my plan was to go after these markets in 2020, but we're almost 6 months in and I haven't done shit, nor even watched one second of a video pertaining to dentists/plastic surgeons. On the flip though, I invest about 15 hours a week finger drumming/making beats, and at least 20 hours doing research on this market, so it's safe to say this is where my passion lies. Plus, I really want to move away from offering services, and instead sell products. There's just too much back and forth (with the client) offering custom websites.

 

Anyways, would like to hear if you guys thought about breaking into the industry, or if you already have, and what's working for you, not working for you, etc.

 

Peace.

[Wax On]

I like the thought of doing it, but I sample stuff and don't do much to change it, so probably would fail at the first hurdle

[JHouse]

I wonder at what point flippin' the sample is considered okay to reproduce and sell. Like, does it have to be completely unrecognizable. I don't really mess with samples, but eventually would like to incorporate some into my tracks, granted it's not gonna cost me an arm and a testi.

[Wax On]

I think it depends on success tbh. Like I think if you do something thats successful then record companies/publishers would want a piece, but if not why would they bother?

[JHouse]

True true.

[cutdisco]

I can't tell, but follow your innervoice

It comes to networking or putting yourself outthere, not sure about your age but i ran into multiple stories from youngsters, that sell&produce beats for rappers or for some Grime stuff. etc etc

Understanding their tools perfectly, build the tune, mix it down, all in a day or two and send it and get some cash from it, this all pretty anonymous.

Just great, something we could only dream of as kids....

[Steve]

The problem with sampling is, you can never really tell if a track is gonna blow up, and if it does, there are so many internet Sherlocks out there that will figure out the samples you used, so you're kinda fucked.

 

Sites like "whosampled" are a lawyer's dream when it comes to this shit.

 

Kno of CunninLynguists: -

 

 

 

The music I make infringes on copyrights. I am aware of this and have been aware of this, that is why I don’t stress getting rich off of it, I tell people to download it if they want to and I sink any money I do make back into making more records…I am not ‘blaming fans,’ I’m stating facts…public discussion of specific instances of copyright infringement in my work is making it impossible to even create the music period, even if I were to give it away for free. It would still end up on YouTube and I’d still get served by Google-searching lawyers and publishing houses who think they might be able to squeeze money out of me.

[Dan]

www.tracklib.com

 

This seems like a good idea, some of the tracks are £££££ to licence but some can be had for about 50 quid. If your worried about the legal side tracklib has it all covered.

[djdiggla]

www.tracklib.com

 

This seems like a good idea, some of the tracks are £££££ to licence but some can be had for about 50 quid. If your worried about the legal side tracklib has it all covered.

 

There are also some fair use sites and open copyright sites if you really want to sample and would like to sell without clearing.

And of course George Clinton... you just have to notify them in writing and they get 15% of the profits if it gets big. That's why P-Funk is so widely sampled.

 

Here are some of the creative commons sites I have bookmarked. Would be cool if future beat battles used stuff off here so we could actually use the beats.

https://archive.org/details/netlabels

http://www.seabreezecomputers.com/tips/freemusic.htm

https://freemusicarchive.org/

https://creativecommons.org/about/program-areas/arts-culture/arts-culture-resources/music-communities

https://freesound.org/browse/tags/music/

https://www.macaulaylibrary.org/

[JHouse]

Thanks for the gems, guys.

 

I was just watching a podcast yesterday about this very subject (sampling) and the dude was saying that even if you negotiate a percentage with the original artist you sampled, they can change it (say, from 50% to 100%) immediately after it goes 'live.' They can completely shut it down so it's shelved indefinitely, too, despite previous negotiations. At this time though, I really have no interest in using samples as I'm still incredibly happy with the royalty free sounds I've been using and the ones I'm about to cop.

 

Still waiting for Caveman Lawyer to chime in though...

[djdiggla]

PB Wolf did a Red Bull Music Academy lecture in town many years ago and the sampling part was pretty interesting. He said that clearing beats made by Dilla or Madlib was damn near impossible because they didn't even know where a sample was from. So they just didn't. They would settle as the lawsuits came. And TBH that's probably the better approach... you can probably settle for less in most cases than if you went and did it legitimately. He said it was never the super obvious samples either. It was always the obscure shit because if you google someone super popular then a million things come up but if you google someone that is obscure just the whosampled sites come back.

[JHouse]

Anybody from D's old board remember when the Ruck jacked someone's beat, slowed it down, then called it his own? Lorn called him out about it, but of course Ricci denied the allegations in a super long, winded, predictable post. Classic Rucker.

[Steve]

Anybody from D's old board remember when the Ruck jacked someone's beat, slowed it down, then called it his own? Lorn called him out about it, but of course Ricci denied the allegations in a super long, winded, predictable post. Classic Rucker.

 

I remember that, although I can't remember the song, but it was definitely a straight rip off.

 

I also remember when someone found most of the samples from his Utility Phonograph Record all on the same site, pre-dating the release of his record by a couple of years. He wasn't best pleased about that either.

[JHouse]

That fuckin' guy.

[arkei]

 

Still waiting for Caveman Lawyer to chime in though...

 

Cirroc will take great care of you don't worry

[arkei]

 

Anybody from D's old board remember when the Ruck jacked someone's beat, slowed it down, then called it his own? Lorn called him out about it, but of course Ricci denied the allegations in a super long, winded, predictable post. Classic Rucker.

 

I remember that, although I can't remember the song, but it was definitely a straight rip off.

 

I also remember when someone found most of the samples from his Utility Phonograph Record all on the same site, pre-dating the release of his record by a couple of years. He wasn't best pleased about that either.

 

 

The name was Drexiya I believe. He also put a lot of sample he jacked from a university on UPR1. That Ruck

[cutdisco]

which Lorn are you talking about?

this Lorn

 

Jacking beats from Drexiya? The electro gods.....

[Jam Burglar]

 

 

Anybody from D's old board remember when the Ruck jacked someone's beat, slowed it down, then called it his own? Lorn called him out about it, but of course Ricci denied the allegations in a super long, winded, predictable post. Classic Rucker.

 

I remember that, although I can't remember the song, but it was definitely a straight rip off.

 

I also remember when someone found most of the samples from his Utility Phonograph Record all on the same site, pre-dating the release of his record by a couple of years. He wasn't best pleased about that either.

 

 

The name was Drexiya I believe. He also put a lot of sample he jacked from a university on UPR1. That Ruck

 

 

 

Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer here.

 

First, I fully remember that situation with the Ruck and it was super stupid. Almost every beat you hear on a break record is jacked! Sometimes it's as simple as a looped up beat. Sometimes it's chopped up. Sometimes its more involved. So the Ruck took the Drexiya beat, slowed it down and put it on a break record and Lorn was like "hey you stole that" and everybody who knows anything about sampling was like "uhhh, yeah, of course he did, that's pretty much EVERY break record". To me it showed the ingnorance of your average scratch DJ when it comes to break records and where the sounds and beats come from. If I ever see Mixmaster Mike, I'm not going to "call him out" because he put Jive Rhythm Trax 122 BPM on his break record. It's just supposed to be a cool beat to cut over, nobody cares if you made it or not. So, while I disagree with the Ruck on lots of things, he was right on this one. I'm not sure if Lorn was entirely ignorant of sampling at that time, or if he was trolling, or what. I know they were beefing hard.

 

Second, as far as sampling goes, there's no hard-fast rules. To be 100% safe you need to license/buy the rights to use the sample recording. There ARE legal concepts, such as "fair use" that allow you to sample a recording without paying, but you never know if your work qualifies as "fair use" until a Court says it does. Unless you have tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars laying around to finance your fair use defense in Court then you're taking a risk by sampling. A lot of people just take the risk, especially independent artists. If the album blows up then you might not make much money because at that point you're spending profits paying claims. This can be especially scary if you have no backing from a label. There are some classic hip hop albums where nothing was cleared and the artists ended up spending most of the profits clearing samples after the fact, which is not a good place to be when negotiating with the owner. Even when you clear all the samples, you can STILL get sued. This happened to the Beastie Boys sever times.

 

I'm just a simple caveman, but I have to say the sampling laws are a good example of the wackness of Western society. We've set things up so that everything must be "owned" by somebody, and because ownership can be sold, we're now at a point where people can own intellectual property pretty much forever. You have to go WAAYY back to find much in the public domain that's safe to sample. Hip hop, which is one the most creative and new forms of music to come about in the last 100 years, WOULD NOT EXIST if these laws were enforced in the way the owners would like them to be enforced. These traditional musicians came up stealing other people's ideas, rifs, etc. and as soon as a lot of them cut their records they were like "this is MINE now" and you have to pay me. These fools weren't paying the Stylistics shit to cover "People Make the World Go Round". But if you sample their cover of that song, you have to pay? This goes back to the distinction between the copyright on the composition, and the copyright on the recording. But the only reason the copyright on the recording was initially treated differently was to prevent bootlegging whole songs. Sampling did not exist when they created the laws. So, now you have this situation where a person can take someone else's composition, change a few minor things, and call it their own "original" work, but the guy who samples the recording, flips it to high heaven, and comes up with something totally different it "copying".

 

And I've got nothing against producers who don't sample, but there's a REASON many of us are drawn to classic hip hop, and its lost on these sterile sample packs and synth sounds. People who think they are "serious musicians" simply because they use some sample pack, or keyboard, or even generate their own sounds, and that they are somehow above somebody who samples, are fooling themselves. They're still jacking techniques that exist SOLELY because sample musicians created them. And the only reason these techniques were created was specially because of sampling. Again, not saying it's wack to not sample, I'm just saying the fact that a person doesn't sample does not automatically put them on a higher level than Pete Rock when it comes to musicianship.

 

Anyway, I'm not against Artists getting paid when somebody samples their work, but it has to be a REASONABLE amount and they shouldn't be able to deny the use. When you put your music out there in society, its no longer just yours. They should have to deal with that. They copied somebody else anyway so the fact that they don't want to reciprocate makes them hypocrites.

 

[JHouse]

which Lorn are you talking about?

this Lorn

 

Jacking beats from Drexiya? The electro gods.....

Yep, that Lorn.

[JHouse]

 

 

 

Anybody from D's old board remember when the Ruck jacked someone's beat, slowed it down, then called it his own? Lorn called him out about it, but of course Ricci denied the allegations in a super long, winded, predictable post. Classic Rucker.

 

I remember that, although I can't remember the song, but it was definitely a straight rip off.

 

I also remember when someone found most of the samples from his Utility Phonograph Record all on the same site, pre-dating the release of his record by a couple of years. He wasn't best pleased about that either.

 

 

The name was Drexiya I believe. He also put a lot of sample he jacked from a university on UPR1. That Ruck

 

 

 

Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer here.

 

First, I fully remember that situation with the Ruck and it was super stupid. Almost every beat you hear on a break record is jacked! Sometimes it's as simple as a looped up beat. Sometimes it's chopped up. Sometimes its more involved. So the Ruck took the Drexiya beat, slowed it down and put it on a break record and Lorn was like "hey you stole that" and everybody who knows anything about sampling was like "uhhh, yeah, of course he did, that's pretty much EVERY break record". To me it showed the ingnorance of your average scratch DJ when it comes to break records and where the sounds and beats come from. If I ever see Mixmaster Mike, I'm not going to "call him out" because he put Jive Rhythm Trax 122 BPM on his break record. It's just supposed to be a cool beat to cut over, nobody cares if you made it or not. So, while I disagree with the Ruck on lots of things, he was right on this one. I'm not sure if Lorn was entirely ignorant of sampling at that time, or if he was trolling, or what. I know they were beefing hard.

I think it was more about the fact that Ricci was lying about it and calling it his own. He denied the f' out of repetitive accusations too, not just from Lorn. Lorn just started it, and well, persistently poured fuel on the fire. Also, it's one thing to sample, it's another to sample the actual whole beat and melody. then pass it off as your own. But, TBH, I didn't know this was common on skratch records, I thought they were making the beats themselves. Given how much The Ruck bigged up himself on the daily, I seriously figured he would conjure up his loops himself.

[Steve]

When I replied to J's post above, I was thinking of a different tune - one that Ricci produced, but had some guy singing on it. That was just me misremembering shit.

 

Nobody thinks that the beats/samples on battle/scratch records should be super original, nor that those samples should be cleared. Who has ever cleared samples on those kinds of records? Lorn did not call out the Ruck because of his ignorance of how that shit worked, but the two were certainly arguing regularly at the time.

 

You can find the original description of UPR from the Ruck if you do a Google search and he definitely hyped it up as some work of genius on Asis. He called out other DJs for being lazy and claimed it took him 2 years of hard work to make UPR. He also explicitly said that he was a better producer than Drexciya at one point, and he also lodged copyright claims against people, including DV members, for posting his shit online, not for posting full albums or 12"s which would be understandable, but for posting short segments of live performances.

 

He got attacked for trying to portray UPR as a work of genius, when most of the samples were downloaded from one website and the main scratch beat was a slowed down version of a beat from a producer that the Ruck thought he was better than. When Mike Reezy posted the link on Asis to the site where most of the samples from UPR were jacked from, the Ruck banned him.

 

Personally I give a shit about 2 things: -

 

1. Is it dope?

2. Is the person who made it being honest?

 

Rucker was being criticised for 2.

[Jam Burglar]

You might be thinking of Thelonious London "Cold Pillow" or the track he produced for Breakbot.

 

But yeah, I never remember him saying he made the samples, just that the sounds were sampled from instruments instead of the wax. I believe it was the Bastard Language Tour record where he and D-Styles were recording sounds.

 

Here's the add for UPR1

 

 

Summary written by Ricci Rucker

When using the turntable as an instrument, the records become our sounds. How we arrange our sounds from the beginning, dramatically improves or hinders the results in the end. Designing a scratch record is an art, although, recently, it's been used as a get rich quick scheme by people abusing simple formulas and saturating the market with useless records.

 

Compile the same samples + thoughtless arrangment + a silly name = scratch record.

 

Of course, after they collect the loot, they return with the same record arrnged slightly different than the last which wasn't anything new in the first place. That's the process in general, and I'm giving it to you bluntly. To design a scratch record is to construct in a reverse engineering process. One must have an idea of what they want to do, before they can arrange a scratch record. Let me give you a quick example of what I mean. If I wanted to perform scratch drums at a slow tempo, I'd have at least 2 choices. One, I'd arrange some kick snare drums at an average tempo of 90bpms, then just drum live, slowly. Or two, I'd arrange the kick and snare further apart from each other.

 

Why would I choose the second method?

 

When scratching, you are working against the turntables rotation, the less you work against the tables natural rotation, the easier you attain a fuller more controlled sound. If I arrange the kick and snare further apart from each other, I'd get fuller sounding drums since I wouldn't have to pause the drums constantly to stay on beat, and the time between the kick and snare would already be about the same tempo I'm drumming at. This would allow me to not cut the natural sustain of the drums. The key is to work with the turntables moving platter, and the record being designed to put yourself, the turntable, and the sounds in sync to create a fluid motion, thus a fluid sound. That's just one example of the many little details that come with making a useable scratch record.

 

I designed The Utility Phonograph Record between December 2001 - February 2002, for myself. Almost 2 years later, it's finally hitting the stores. Until now, most scratch records have been designed without the specific idea of how the record will be used live. Since this record was arranged by hand without a sequencer, sample per sample, I was able to place sounds in ways that would of otherwise not been attempted working within the parameters of a sequencer. The drum kits (vintage and recent), along with a majority of the sounds were sampled directly from the actual instruments. The main reason for this was to maintain sound integrity. One huge gripe I've had with scratch records is many of them use samples from wax that they've already used. When trying to use these records at a show, the drums for instance, usually don't hit very hard. Sampling from wax is cool if it's the right sound, but most scratch records never see a mastering studio and are mastered in the bedroom and then are put directly to wax. Not only did I use most of the samples from the main source, but this was mastered professionally to bring you maximum blastability.

 

The drum kits were retweaked to create various unique sequences to be used live, or sampled by any sound designer for their own production. The drum kits range from dry, wet, and distorted, arranged in a way that flows in and out of each style of drum kit. Vintage synths were also sampled directly and arranged with other drum sequencers using the "12 o'clock" method (every revolution is either a drum sequence or a synth sequence). Locked grooves are also utilized on this record. By locking different percussion and hi hats, the user, or users, can perform their music live without "wasting" someone's talent by having them just doing the hi hats. This also can be used as a practice metronome, or scratched for percussive studio application.

 

Some of the drum/vintage synth sequences were arranged so that wth each revolution, a new synth, or new drum sequences plays. This is based off the skipless concept, but this isn't meant to be skipless. This is meant as a permanent marker for live and improv performance so you know when new similar sounds will play. There are many little arrangement attributes that I've applied all over the record that words won't do justice. To really appreciate the arrangements, you have to use the record.

 

Also featured are locked groove beats that when played on turntables with a -50% pitch control, can loop one bar beats at about 60 bpms, as opposed to the usual half bar beats at the same tempo. Can't forget the scratch beat, and a bunch of other features that you can easily put to work. This record was constructed with patients and forethought. If you are a scratch musician. or a sampled based producer, I'd find it hard to believe that you won't be able to use this record to your own benefit.

 

He actually makes some really good points above and it's mostly about layout and making a scratch record for musical purposes. That record was very innovative and ground breaking and I can see why it would take a few years. When you compare it to one of the many Dirtstyle and Dirtstyle knock-off records of the time, he's got damn good argument.

 

Also, gotta love Reezy. He seems like he's doing pretty okay these days.

 

Anyway, to try to tie all of this back into the topic though, hip hop producers have been sampling without clearing for years and years but there's always that risk that some copyright owner will show up and sue you. It's pretty hard to do things 100% legal without (a) spending loads of time and money to clear every single sample (b) using vetted sample packs © using drum machines & synths or (d) creating your own samples. As a result, that classic hip hop mentality has pretty much been stomped out for anybody unwilling to take the risk. Sy Spex has been doing some pretty cool workarounds using midi-mapping to sample grooves without actually sampling the recordings.

[Jam Burglar]

I think it was more about the fact that Ricci was lying about it and calling it his own. He denied the f' out of repetitive accusations too, not just from Lorn. Lorn just started it, and well, persistently poured fuel on the fire. Also, it's one thing to sample, it's another to sample the actual whole beat and melody. then pass it off as your own. But, TBH, I didn't know this was common on skratch records, I thought they were making the beats themselves. Given how much The Ruck bigged up himself on the daily, I seriously figured he would conjure up his loops himself.

 

 

Most of the sounds and beats from break records are jacked. They're a copyright nightmare. But I don't think you'd see Ric take a slowed down Drexiya and put it on an actual album. Most of the guys jacking beats for break records would not ever do that for an album. And the guys who are making really dope beats for break records sometimes put their stuff on albums. For example, Mix Master Mike's drums from Needle Thrashers 2 ended up on Wavetwisters. And even when you get into albums, you start to get into shades more than black and white distinctions. I can kind of see why a lot of producers stopped using samples due to the hassle, but I tend to think we've lost a lot of good music because of it. I wish DJ Shadow would go back to making music the way he did with Entroducing.

[djdiggla]

 

 

 

 

Anybody from D's old board remember when the Ruck jacked someone's beat, slowed it down, then called it his own? Lorn called him out about it, but of course Ricci denied the allegations in a super long, winded, predictable post. Classic Rucker.

 

I remember that, although I can't remember the song, but it was definitely a straight rip off.

 

I also remember when someone found most of the samples from his Utility Phonograph Record all on the same site, pre-dating the release of his record by a couple of years. He wasn't best pleased about that either.

 

 

The name was Drexiya I believe. He also put a lot of sample he jacked from a university on UPR1. That Ruck

 

 

 

Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer here.

 

First, I fully remember that situation with the Ruck and it was super stupid. Almost every beat you hear on a break record is jacked! Sometimes it's as simple as a looped up beat. Sometimes it's chopped up. Sometimes its more involved. So the Ruck took the Drexiya beat, slowed it down and put it on a break record and Lorn was like "hey you stole that" and everybody who knows anything about sampling was like "uhhh, yeah, of course he did, that's pretty much EVERY break record". To me it showed the ingnorance of your average scratch DJ when it comes to break records and where the sounds and beats come from. If I ever see Mixmaster Mike, I'm not going to "call him out" because he put Jive Rhythm Trax 122 BPM on his break record. It's just supposed to be a cool beat to cut over, nobody cares if you made it or not. So, while I disagree with the Ruck on lots of things, he was right on this one. I'm not sure if Lorn was entirely ignorant of sampling at that time, or if he was trolling, or what. I know they were beefing hard.

I think it was more about the fact that Ricci was lying about it and calling it his own. He denied the f' out of repetitive accusations too, not just from Lorn. Lorn just started it, and well, persistently poured fuel on the fire. Also, it's one thing to sample, it's another to sample the actual whole beat and melody. then pass it off as your own. But, TBH, I didn't know this was common on skratch records, I thought they were making the beats themselves. Given how much The Ruck bigged up himself on the daily, I seriously figured he would conjure up his loops himself.

 

 

Yeah slapping a slowed down beat on a battle record isn't sampling. That's jacking a beat. Which I mean, I'm not hardcore against but claiming it's yours is lame AF. And feel like it's one thing if you just some scratch jamoke trying to put out a cool fun record and just breaking even but another thing when you tout yourself as this N3X7 13V31 musician and selling it for a profit.

[JHouse]

Bet Ricci likes fish sticks.