How does anybody scratch on DVS ?

[Flexinoodle]

I'm getting back in to my scratching, I'm really old school, nothing like you modern guys, I'm starting to get my nice fast chirps back and stuff, but i set up my Traktor A10 with Traktor to try scratching on that using DVS and i'm completely useless even on the lowest 'reported' latency setting 3ms.

What's the deal, do you have to just relearn everything for DVS because the timing is so crap or am i missing something ?

[Deft]

It's been ages since I scratched on DVS but I couldn't say I found any perceptible latency issues on Serato or Traktor when running at the smallest soundcard buffer sizes. The Rane 12 equally I don't feel any issues on its lowest settings. On max latency I can notice for sure.

[Flexinoodle]

I cant even chirp at all on Traktor lol, Vinyl im getting my shit together a bit, but DVS is just terrible, I was convinced it was me being a useless twat (Happens very often) but as soon as i put vinyl back on i can do stuff again haha.

[JHouse]

I have a Traktor Z2 mixer, with the soundcard built-in, and I seldom notice any latency issues. Never tried connecting to an external soundcard as in your case, so can't comment there, but aybe you can try a friend's Z2 and compare the two (i.e. your external soundcard setup compared to built-in). Doesn't sound like the issue is with your computer since 3ms is pretty good.

 

In any case, yeah, I prefer skratching with real vinyl.

[Flexinoodle]

1 You assume i have friends hahahahaha

2 I live in donkey hole tiny village, im probably the only fuckers who has heard of scratching

 

Anyway, lesson learnt here, i was trying to scratch with the garbage demo MP3s that come with Traktor, loaded my own Aaah wav, tighter than a ducks ring piece, loving it hahahaha.

[Guest Symatic]

yeah i definately notice differnece with lower quality files.... feels wrong.... glitchy kinda, or laggy. but also check the needles and stuff, can make a huge difference but is easy to forget once youre always using DVS that the analog components are wearing out bit by bit all the time.

also with serato i make sure to recalibrate it whenever i change anything, like if im playing on another set of decks or change a needle, gotta recalibrate...

 

hastag just use vinyl its way more betterer

[Flexinoodle]

Nah the set up is fine, just about broken in M44s, good couple years left on them at least.

It was just NIs shitty demos, Mp3 and they have compressed the absolute shit out of them too, just could not get anything to work.

Just been smashing it silly cutting and mixing, no problem at all, feels about the same as DJPP (extremely tight) but just to make sure i wasn't mental i tried their demos again, even a simple clap couldn't be cut properly, really really weird.

[Flexinoodle]

Although, the Xone 02 dying in mid test didn't help, it has to be said hahahaha.

[iexist]

I don't understand DVS either. Majority of scratch videos I see are DJs using DVS. And it all sounds great.

 

Have DJs just adapted to latency? Is the delay for them the norm? Because, its unplayable for me.

[Deft]

It's something I've pondered occasionally. However, Serato on lowest buffer size I never recall feeling any noticeable latency that I found uncomfortable or troublesome. I imagine there are some techniques and speeds which could show up latency issues. Super fast chirps for example? But yeah, let's say you had only ever scratched on DVS would your muscle memory be slightly offset to get the sound right. I dunno. I looked into it for other MIDI instruments and stuff and it seemed like under a certain ms it was generally thought people can't feel a perceptible difference in performance.

[Flexinoodle]

A lot of tests were done with guitarists at different distances from the speaker (literal latency) and we do compensate entirely for the latency in our playing.

 

There is a sweet spot of below 5ms round trip (near impossible to reach) and when we are able to hit that in the next few years we will be sweet.

 

A lot of people will now scream they are getting better than 5ms, if that is roundtrip and tested via loopback it isnt stable, if it is what is being reported by your software or audio driver it is a lie and wont include buffers or A/D D/A all of which add up. (I am only speaking USB here, all DVS are USB, Well except you know, that other make, which does go lower than 5ms stable full loopback lol)

[Jam Burglar]

I don't understand DVS either. Majority of scratch videos I see are DJs using DVS. And it all sounds great.

 

Have DJs just adapted to latency? Is the delay for them the norm? Because, its unplayable for me.

 

If it's set up right its fine. I had the same reservations about it because for years I would try out other people's DVS setups and it definitely was unplayable as far as I was concerned. I would be doing the movements right but the clicks weren't right. What I found out was that DJ's were just adapting to latency.

 

Now though, you can get the latency low enough so you can barely tell the difference and you adjust quickly. It feels like its 95% there. The main thing for me is the sound is never the same. You get used to the thumps and whatnot coming off the needle and that's all missing on the DVS. In some ways that's good but in other ways you get used to hearing that stuff and when it's gone it sounds kind of thin.

[Chris]

A metre from a sound source contributes around 3ms latency, so for instance a grand piano player gets about 5-10ms or so and a drummer gets all different from their various pieces. Add 8ms to the 3 youre getting from your monitors under most environments, whether club monitors or home studio setups, I think theres other factors at play when it comes to DVS not feeling quite right - as JB says the lack of thump and rumble is one, and not feeling the feedback from the vibration under the needle is another. Because you can actually feel a kick or an aah or whatever underneath your hand theres more directness - Ive often wondered whether that can be simulated via haptic feedback. Ive often heard 8ms is the golden number for distinguishable latency to the experienced ear. A bit less than 120th of a second.

[Flexinoodle]

8ms is good for non Rythmic types, 5ms is the sweet spot for Rythmic types.

20ms is the ear brain reaction time, so it needs to be halved to feel instant, but that is averages, DJs have trained themselves to be sync tight, so you need to halve it again to 5ms.

 

Most Digital Mixing desks are about 3-5ms and they feel and react how we percieve analogue to feel and react.