Where would Grandmaster Flash's career be without The Message?

[Steve]

There's a lot of articles popping up about this just recently. Basically, Grandmaster Flash didn't have a great deal to do with the 2 albums that Grandmaster Flash & The Furious Five put out. In the case of The Message, he had nothing to do with it at all - the song was written and performed by Duke Bootee and Melle Mel, and Melle Mel only did the last verse. Flash didn't like the record and said that nobody wanted to hear that social commentary bullshit, which caused him and Melle Mel to fall out.

 

Without The Message, I don't think anyone would really remember that group. They had a couple of other decent tracks, but The Message is a straight up hip-hop classic. It crossed over on to mainstream radio and all of my friends know some of the lyrics, even if they're not even into hip-hop.

 

Do you think that The Message would have still been a huge hit if Flash's name wasn't on it? Do you think that Flash's career would have taken off the way it did if his name wasn't on it?

[Vekked]

Do you think that The Message would have still been a huge hit if Flash's name wasn't on it? Do you think that Flash's career would have taken off the way it did if his name wasn't on it?

I'm speaking beyond my years here but I feel like the whole thing is a bit unfair to GM Flash in a way, at least the whole "GMF = milli vanilli" thing. People are looking at it from the perspective of our current times for music and how the music industry works, rather than a time pre-samplers/home recording/etc. Like GM Flash was a pure DJ, only mixing other people's music, and he got a record deal based off of his live DJing... that wouldn't even really happen nowadays.

 

The way I see it/understand, GM Flash was the main attraction for live shows/parties and the MCs supported him, and they gain enough publicity from their music that they get a record deal, directly because of Flash. But this is pre-samplers, and all Flash does is play other people's music and they can't release that, so when it comes to recording the album there's not much he can contribute. So it's a weird issue because it's like having a musician who creates all the music for a band in their live shows but his music can't actually be recorded... but a record label wants to give him money to make a record anyways.

 

So it's kinda like even though GM Flash doesn't have his actual music on the record, the reason they get noticed, and signed, and all their live shows are from Flash directly. So yea, like nowadays I don't think the situation even really exists and people aren't really looking at it like it's in a time where it was physically impossible for a DJ to record/make music by himself.

[Guest petesasqwax]

Cash nailed it for me, I think. He spoke about how Flash had his rep thanks to his performances in the park, the cassette recordings of which found their way not only across the country, but across the world. Having his name on records may have helped raise his profile in terms of mainstream recognition, but hip-hop heads knew all about Flash, Herc & Bambaataa from their tapes and there was nothing Milli Vanilli about those!

[Steve]

Yeah, some of the articles and comments I've seen are way over the line. One article called him a "total fraud", and that Milli Vanilli comparison is just silly.

 

I do think that Flash's career would be much smaller without The Message though.

 

Grandmaster Flash's FB page = 387,000+ likes.

Charlie Chase's FB page = 2,510 likes.

 

Charlie Chase was an influential DJ in the early years, DJing for Cold Crush Brothers, featuring in Wild Style and what have you, but if his name was associated with The Message instead of Flash's then those FB likes would probably be reversed.

[Guest petesasqwax]

That's probably true, although I'm not sure where FB stands as regards general profile. I use it all the time, but I'm still funny about taking it to "mean" anything, if you get me

[Guest rasteri]

You leave grandma alone.

[doppelkorn]

Maybe a bigger question would be 'Where would GMF be without White Lines?'.

 

A track he not only wasn't involved with, but which he wasn't even credited on. However, the popular opinion is that it's by him, and even the marketing around it tried to make it seem like he was on it.

[kebzer]

Flash's status skyrocketed through Blondie and his association with Debbie Harry, which is directly connected to Furious Five and the huge mass appeal of The Message. Flash might be one of the true pioneers of hip hop DJing and turntablism, no argue on that, but his overall star status was created as part of the Furious Five (even though he didn't do shit about those recordings) and not because of his scratching.

 

Bringing the discussion back in line with the actual events, this whole Flash-Milli Vanilli thing blew out after Flash's claim that Graffiti was never part of the Hip Hop Culture. Apparently, this statement struck so many chords that a lot of old stories surfaced back. Currently, Flash gets burned on a daily basis and I personally agree with that, as I always thought he is extremely over estimated (and constantly pampered throughout his career), in a lot of different levels.

[DJ Rock Well]

Dopp - I always thought the deal with White Lines was that it was made at the point that the Furious Five and Flash had seriously fractured beyond the point of no return and he was doing a load of coke and they made the track as a dig at him. Just what I heard of course, I wasn't there... I had playschool that day.

 

I always thought that Flash was just a DJ and although the group grew out of live shows, never thought Flash produced any of the music, didn't even think he could back then. I assumed he wasn't on The Message as there's no scratching on it.

[doppelkorn]

I think White Lines was an anti-coke track but by all accounts Melle Mel was fond of the old beak as well. I bet they all were.

 

If it was a dig at him, why is it credited to "Grandmaster and Melle Mel"? Always puzzled me. There was no such person as "Grandmaster".

[Guest petesasqwax]

You leave grandma alone.

This is a valid point, actually - it's impossible to say to what extent Flash's Facebook popularity has benefited from this

[djnumnuts]

Professor DaddyO on Melle Mel’s claim that Grandmaster Flash is the Milli Vanilli of Hip-Hop

http://blackwestchester.com/2015/05/18/hip-hop-spotlight-professor-daddyo-on-melle-mels-claim-that-grandmaster-flash-is-the-milli-vanilli-of-hip-hop/

[doppelkorn]

That's a well interesting vid numly. I'd like to see you chime in sometimes in these debates.

 

You're a good guy.

[djdiggla]

I didn't realize the backstory on the Message but I think he'd still be famous because of The Adventures of Grandmaster Flash on the Wheels of Steel, etc. The Message may have had crossover appeal but I don't think his name was built on or retained on that alone. And I don't think people remember him for that--TBH I think most people kinda know that song--it's in the collective consciousness but I'd bet just as many people would guess it's the Sugarhill Gang. Nobody knows or cares. Flash is bigger than Charlie Chase because of a myriad of reasons. For one he's made an effort it seems to solidify his place in hiphop--he worked to be visible in addition to being an innovator. Or that's how it seems to me. He also got held up (I'd say rightfully so) because of his innovation and contribution which is again, why he's more known than CC.

 

I think Vekked's points are pretty insightful to the bigger picture too.

 

But what do I know? I was 3 when The Message came out.

[Jam Burglar]

I've always been into the early years since I started DJing, buying anything I could find in 79 and 80. I used to get my library to import all the super-rare hip hop books. If you're into this shit, check out the "Hip Hop Family Tree" comics. It's got it's stint but it's crazy ill.

 

Anyway, I think the answer is "maybe".

 

Flash was the nucleus of the Furious Five and he was a MAJOR player on the scene. If you follow the history you'll see MCs would leave or get dropped and the name of the crew followed the DJ. Flash was running shit back then as far as the clubs, etc and was kind of a James Brownesque, G. He was a huge innovator too. First guy to use the beat box, all types of custom mods. So, what I'm saying is that he was a major player in relatively small pool of musicians at that point in time. Anybody moving the artform forward, commercially or othewise, would have had a hard time NOT including him as a central figure.

 

Plus, all those early hip hop records bore little resemblance to what DJs were actually doing. "We Rap More Mellow", all that Enjoy and Surgar hill stuff by "Flash" was just funk bands. Flash and all the other DJs got pretty much left out of it except that they got their name on the record because they were the center figures on the street. Nobody thought the records would be nearly as profitable as they turned out to be and early on dudes like Flash were like "psshhh". The only early records I can really think of that actually "sampled" was "High Power Rap" by Crash Crew (I think that was the first one but was a tape loop) and Adventures on the Wheels, which was pretty huge itself and probably the only real, recorded representation of actual early hip hop. Like somebody said, tapes were big. You can find a lot of that shit on youtube now and it is DOPE! Rocking doubles of Space Funk like it ain't no thing, forget about it.

 

So, I kind of think one way or the other he would be close to where he is today. He made a lot of shit happen and his current status revolves around him being a legendary DJ. Don't get me wrong I'm sure the Message helped but I don't think it was a make him or break him type of scenario.

[DJ Rock Well]

Top answer Ham Znurglat (sorry, autocorrect just let me down but I quite like what it came up with there so left it), I can't disagree with anything you say. I always thought it was a DJ he made his name and never thought he produced the tracks, but you break it down way better than I ever could.

[doppelkorn]

I did a thread on this but is the message a 100% original beat? It's such a rare thing to hear a beat that fresh being unsampled.

[DJ Rock Well]

I think so, although I might be being very ignorant.

 

Obviously in this era, direct sampling wasn't really possible but of course bands replayed bits of others songs in just the same way. But I don't think this was one such example

[Guest Symatic]

Ham Znurglat - amazing

 

I dunno the facts cos i was just an unfertilized egg at the time, but I reckon Flash was blatantly a big deal back then, Advetures is legendary shit.

 

It's sad to see these hero's are all splintered apart from one another, but the commercialization of hip hop was never gonna be a fair game i guess

[Guest petesasqwax]

What Jam Burglar was saying reminds me of one of my favourite truisms about hip hop. I forget who actually said it - could've been Herc or Bam or any one of a dozen guys - but the initial idea of a hip hop record was utterly absurd at the outset. Their view was that hip hop had always been created live by the DJs using 2 copies of other records - "a hip hop record" was a complete oxymoron and as a result a lot of early DJs had little interest in being involved.

[doppelkorn]

And to further add to the beard stroking going on, I don't believe they would have used the term 'hip hop' then either.

 

Maybe someone can correct me on that though.

[Guest petesasqwax]

You'd be hard pressed to find a reliable story regarding the exact origin of the term, though it's generally accepted that the DJs who used to play uptown at the clubs would use the phrase in their ad libs long before Sylvia Robinson started putting pizza boys in vocal booths...

[Jam Burglar]

I did a thread on this but is the message a 100% original beat? It's such a rare thing to hear a beat that fresh being unsampled.

 

Supposedly it was original but kind of inspired by Genius of Love (synth) and Bounce to the Ounce (bass). Although somewhere in my memory banks I think I heard a disco song that had a very similar synth part and I had assumed they did the same thing as with all the other early hip hop records: use a record as the source but have the in-house band play the break live.

 

They could and did "sample" back then. I'm sure there's something to what DaddyO was saying about engineers not wanting to hook turntables up (that does seem kind of odd, but he was there so how can you really question it. Maybe it was an excuse they gave DJs because they were really worried about copyright. Who knows). Anyway, on "High Power Rap" Crash Crew used a tape loop to sample "Get up and Dance" by Freedom Force. That was 1980! The next record I can think of that did that was Rock Hard by the Beastie Boys in 1985 (they might have done the something similar for Cookie Puss in 1983 but I don't know the sample sources if they did). Everybody else seemed to be using live bands, recording turntables live, or using drum machines and live turntables.

[doppelkorn]

Cos who the hell composed/arranged it?

Wikipedia, unusually, has nothing other than saying it was "written" by Melle Mel and Duke Bootee. I'm going to go out on a limb and say Melle Mel can't play so much as a triangle.

But what's this? Who could this be talking about?

Although his name is not widely recognized, his ground breaking rhythm track sequencing on "The Message", by Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five helped propel hip hop into the future. The stark synthesizer stabs echoing over the urban funk groove of "The Message" was the work of "Jiggs", who had been brought in to produce the track at the request of label boss Sylvia Robinson. The original demo of "The Message" was written by Ed “Duke Bootee” Fletcher, a session percussionist for The Sugarhill Gang who came up with the hook "It's like a jungle sometimes". Later in the production process, Robinson added lyrics penned by Melle Mel, who rapped on the track.

[Guest petesasqwax]

On a side note - what was the deal with "White Lines" & Liquid Liquid? Did they get permission to replay it, was it sampled or was it just jacked and replayed with no mention of "Cavern"? I don't have my "White Lines" 12" on hand to check but I don't remember seeing any mention on the sleeve.