Music theory required when producing

[doppelkorn]

So basically how much do you think knowledge of music theory helps when producing or more pertinently, how little music theory can you get away with?

 

I was listening to an interview with RZA the other day and he said that when he did 36 Chambers he knew nothing about music theory. I guess this comes across in the album actually - quite stripped back and only one tonal part per song on the whole but some quite complex rhythms.

 

I have pre-GCSE music theory knowledge but have a decent ear for rhythm I think. Unfortunately I have a shit ear for a melody and honestly can't tell sometimes if one note is higher or lower than another, especially if they're on two different instruments.

 

If you're messing with samples how far can you get away with jamming melodic stuff together (chords, bass, lead melody) regardless of keys? I have no knowledge of keys and what can go together. I guess you could just jam stuff together and if it fits it fits and if it didn't it would sound atonal (right word?) but that could be useful to acheive some desired effect like how the Bomb Squad used to do it, apparently.

 

Be interesting to hear people's opinions.

[Wax On]

I've got a decent amount of music theory knowledge, probably grade 5 standard, and i played cornet from 8-13, then guitar from 14, amongst playing other instruments as and when i could get access, though not as good standard.

 

I'd say theory is helpful, but a good ear is far better. Guess it depends on how you want to produce though - whether you want to just sample, or want to use instruments, or both.

[doppelkorn]

I've got a decent amount of music theory knowledge, probably grade 5 standard, and i played cornet from 8-13, then guitar from 14, amongst playing other instruments as and when i could get access, though not as good standard.

 

I'd say theory is helpful, but a good ear is far better. Guess it depends on how you want to produce though - whether you want to just sample, or want to use instruments, or both.

 

For me personally I mean just sampling for now. I don't honestly think you can come up with original compositions with no knowledge of scales and such - can you? Unless you're naturally gifted I suppose but I'm not.

 

Yeah just sampling I guess.

[Jon]

understanding basics of theory is useful, things like knowing what a 1/4 note sounds like, what bpm is, how to judge if something is out of key, what time signatures are. You can have your own method of doing stuff and experiment via trial and error, which is what i used to do, but it makes it a lot easier if you know a little about theory, especially if you're trying to convey your ideas to someone.

 

I remember before I learned theory at 18 I thought there was only one time signature but then you'd get tracks that messed around with that signature and added an extra beat etc- learning how they actually worked made it a lot easier, though my original method made sense, as long as the time signatures were simple, e.g. 5/4 = 4/4 + 1 1/4 beat

[Wax On]

I think the more music you listen to, the more you develope an ear for melody, harmony and scales. Some people pick it up more than others, and you've got to think about the fact that music by definition is mathematic (check out the harmonic series and equally tempered scales and stuff), and its all relative. If someone has an ear, they can play 2 keys on a piano and decide whether they sound right together or not. if they hear a piece of music and can work out what one note of it is, they can quite possibly know that another note which will sound right over the same piece of music is 4 semitones up for example, and so on and so forth. they might know this through messing about along to music.

 

Like anything, some people are better than others at this sort of thing.

 

And take the blues for example. It's all based on a 5-note pentatonic scale and its variations. Most guitar players will know this scale, but the majority are shit with it. It takes an ear to be able to use that pentatonic scale well and play around it.

 

Sorry about the rambling, hope i've made a point though

[d00ban]

I was reading up on this yesterday too! Was gonna ask the same question. what I gathered was for hip hop and other 'simple' 4/4 music if your sampling it's not necessary. They made the point that you hear so much music every you know what goes together and what sounds weird, you just gotta find things which do fit. I was thinking of taking up guitar lessons from the lady who lives below me though (shes a teacher obviously) so I get to know more chord progressions and that.

[doppelkorn]

Thanks guys. I only ask becasue I was searching on DV for something the other day and I came across a load of SirChick stuff and it seems a lot of the old people on here were pretty music theory savvy (and rude).

 

Jon, when I was round your I remember seeing a "Music Theory for Dummies" lying around. Is it worth reading?

 

I totally get time signatures, in theory at least, but am I right in thinking most if not all hip hop is 4/4, rarely even 3/4 which is sometimes common in rock/pop isn't it? Kind of like that waltzy sound. One two three, one two three...

 

With regards melody if I hear one riff, say it's 8 notes and then I have a bass run there's no way I can hear if they will go together or not until I play them over each other. It's like that part of my brain doesn't function. My singing is badly affected as a result!

[Wax On]

Most hip hop is 4/4.

 

I think this is 12/8:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeDKlMuI0PU

[Wax On]

With regards melody if I hear one riff, say it's 8 notes and then I have a bass run there's no way I can hear if they will go together or not until I play them over each other. It's like that part of my brain doesn't function. My singing is badly affected as a result!

 

I don't think you'll know if 2 things go together without trying them together...

[doppelkorn]

With regards melody if I hear one riff, say it's 8 notes and then I have a bass run there's no way I can hear if they will go together or not until I play them over each other. It's like that part of my brain doesn't function. My singing is badly affected as a result!

 

I don't think you'll know if 2 things go together without trying them together...

 

I dunno wax I remember seeing something on TV with Tony Hawks (not Tony Hawk) and Mark King from Level 42 and they were trying to compase something based on a tape they had of some african kids singing and Mark King hears it and goes "well it's in E so..." and starts riffing over it. I think with practice you can just know what key something is in and that allows you to apply your own knowledge of scales and whatever to be able to apply other stuff over it.

 

Same goes for samples. You can hear one and go "that's in Am" and have another one in some clashing key and know they won't go. I think anyway.

[Wax On]

Right, i think we're using 'go together' in 2 different ways.

 

Yes, you can work out if something will go together in terms of theory ie the correct notes.

 

However when I said about stuff going together i meant as in whether it sounds good, not whether it sounds correct. I mean it subjectively, not mathematically. Its like what I said about the blues - knowing the notes doesn't mean that you'll make something which sounds good.

[Jimmy]

However when I said about stuff going together i meant as in whether it sounds good, not whether it sounds correct. I mean it subjectively, not mathematically. Its like what I said about the blues - knowing the notes doesn't mean that you'll make something which sounds good.

 

This imo

[doppelkorn]

I think we're on the same page. Peas.

[djdiggla]

I think music theory helps a lot. I wish I knew more. A lot of stuff is almost common knowledge if you have any talent, but it's kinda like art or photography--you gotta know the rules to know when you should break them.

[Mike-L]

ear training is more important , but often the learning of the two is combined : e.g. learning scales on guitar/piano will give your ear a chance to familarize itself with groups of notes that fit together.

 

other good ear training things are learning how to tune a guitar, or working out simple melodies on keys (start with something annoyingly hard to forget - like the eastenders tune or something)

 

i've known talented beat makers who dont have a very good sense of tuning - but it really limits what your capable of , you'll struggle if you want to sample from multiple sources for instance. I think its vital if you want to be a good producer in the traditional sense though ..whether you use samples or not.

 

I would say my theory with chords/scales etc is pretty good , i learnt guitar from a guy who was really into jazz - which was great for me as a young hip hop head, but also jazz can be pretty tech with scales and chords.Im still no good at reading though - although i can work it out. I dont see the relevance of that kind of theory unless you want to be a session player. I think its better to learn theory in an applied way . e.g, learn some chords on the piano rather than just learn some chords.

[Wax On]

just to add to what mike's saying, i know a few classically trained musicians who are most likely grade 8 level theory, who are literally incapable of improvisation, as they've only ever learnt to play whats in front of them. when me and my mate did a tune a few years back we had a flute player who was like this, and so my mate had to play midi keyboard into cubase to score out so she could learn it. Might i add my mate wasn't an accomplished keyboard player, he just really knew relative notes and had a great feel for blues.

 

I really thing when developing a musical ear, you're a product of the music you listen to.

[Steelio]

Even if you know everything about music theory you still won't be able to just listen to something and say 'Oh that's in Am' or whatever. You'd need to train your ears to do that. Which takes years of playing an instrument, or apparently there are 'perfect pitch' courses you can do. For sampling you just need to know what sounds good to you and go with it. Tons of Hip Hop songs have elements that are out of tune slightly, but they still make it work. Sometimes the off key stuff can sound good, it's just about experimenting with it.

[Kian]

steelio, some music nerds, mostly old old folks will actually tell that the piece is in Am. if the first note begins in A or the dominate note is A, and the piece is shallow and not bright, it's minor. put the 2 together and its A minor. you can also play a Am chord on a piano and/or guitar and people will know the chord was an A minor.

 

i was a student of music theory I and music theory II in college and can determine that also. the key signature, and recognizing them was part of the music theory experience. mentioned already learning scales such as pentatonic, diatonic, major, minor blah blah scales definitely helps if your composing with instruments. but if you just use loops, you don't need to know scales. scales are definitely good for guitar solos or just melody writing, but music can take it further.

 

wax on is right about if you have a sense of tonal pitch, when you play two keys, you can tell that the two sound good or bad together. music theory wise, when you play two keys that are one semi-tone apart (such as playing the C and C#/Db together), it sounds harsh and thats one rule about music composition, avoid semi-tones when holding the keys together. stuff to look into is perfect 4ths and perfect 5ths, those are dominate notes which are 4 whole-steps or 5 away from the root. those whole steps sounds best when played together. to take this even further, one must be able to recognize what note was played and if other notes are being played, how many keys apart are they. in theory I, we had to write the melody down on music staves regarding to the pitches and timing. this isn't that important when making hip hop beats heh.

 

doppelkorn said "With regards melody if I hear one riff, say it's 8 notes and then I have a bass run there's no way I can hear if they will go together or not until I play them over each other." music theory will allow you to know whether the bass riff will work with the melody with or without playing. for example if the melody is in key signature of C major, and the bass riff is in E minor, it definitely wont go together unless you call it experimental lol

 

dooban "I was thinking of taking up guitar lessons from the lady who lives below me though (shes a teacher obviously) so I get to know more chord progressions and that." it was required for us to be proficient on the piano and be able to play and read at the same time. i took what i knew from the piano and transferred it over to the guitar. i've caught on to blues progression and didnt need a guitar teacher, youll definately want to borrow a guitar to see if it suits you.

 

when it comes to producing, music theory is pretty much out the door when it comes todays rap and hip hop. listening to 80s 90s rap hip hop, heard only a few of it being used therefore its not so relative to learn theory when making rap music. if anything, the bass riffs, basic melody, rare chord progression. but then again hip hop didnt start with music theory, it started with djs backspinnin, theory wasnt required.

 

i used to composed simple rap beats with digital performer 2.0 in the early 2000s and logic pro and not a lot of music theory required when doing hip hop beats. the only theory i used was string chord progressions and writing "basso continuo", aka bass lines. havent heard anything from music theory II pertaining to today's rap and hip hop.

 

music theory is everywhere on the internet; youtube and internet courses. best way to learn this is to have someone who knows a bit of the stuff and have them explain with a piano, because you learn theory by hearing scales, pitches, progression, not by reading text.

Edited June 7, 2011 by Kian

[Kian]

You'd need to train your ears to do that. Which takes years of playing an instrument, or apparently there are 'perfect pitch' courses you can do. For sampling you just need to know what sounds good to you and go with it. Tons of Hip Hop songs have elements that are out of tune slightly, but they still make it work. Sometimes the off key stuff can sound good, it's just about experimenting with it.

 

some very smart samplist will actually sample the tune and shift the sample to another key signature and get away with it. thats when perfect pitch and sampling goes great together. some will even sample a piano motif or riff and write it down on music paper. theyll then play the sample on their beat backwards note for note, or even turn the music stave upside down and play it that way.

[Kian]

some african kids singing and Mark King hears it and goes "well it's in E so..." and starts riffing over it. I think with practice you can just know what key something is in and that allows you to apply your own knowledge of scales and whatever to be able to apply other stuff over it.

 

 

true, if the piece is in E, your on a piano or guitar and want to suddenly improvise along, you want to play alot of E chord, A chord, B chord. Its the common 1-4-5 chord progression assuming the piece is "americana"

[Steelio]

steelio, some music nerds, mostly old old folks will actually tell that the piece is in Am. if the first note begins in A or the dominate note is A, and the piece is shallow and not bright, it's minor. put the 2 together and its A minor. you can also play a Am chord on a piano and/or guitar and people will know the chord was an A minor.

 

i was a student of music theory I and music theory II in college and can determine that also. the key signature, and recognizing them was part of the music theory experience. mentioned already learning scales such as pentatonic, diatonic, major, minor blah blah scales definitely helps if your composing with instruments. but if you just use loops, you don't need to know scales. scales are definitely good for guitar solos or just melody writing, but music can take it further.

 

 

Okay, I basically know nothing about music theory, but I was assuming that music theory meant just actually writing and reading music. I didn't know they did the ear training stuff aswell. I always thought that was a separate skill that people who had played instruments for a long time would have. Anyone who can just sit and listen to something and instantly recognise the key signature and can improvise along to it gets respect from me.

 

some very smart samplist will actually sample the tune and shift the sample to another key signature and get away with it. thats when perfect pitch and sampling goes great together. some will even sample a piano motif or riff and write it down on music paper. theyll then play the sample on their beat backwards note for note, or even turn the music stave upside down and play it that way.

 

Yeah, even I do this when I'm sampling, record some stuff and speed it up or slow it down or whatever so it sounds like it's in a different pitch. Or chop each note up and play it in a different order until I make some new little tune out of it. Then try and mix it with other samples so they blend in. There's a few old school hiphop records where you can hear the horns and stuff clashing when they've been mixed over the top of the beat, but they always seem to flip it about so it sounds good or do some tricks when they mix it down so it blends in. I know shit about music theory or reading music but I can still hear when things clash and sound off key, even though I couldn't tell you what key or note it was playing. I just usually just go with whatever I think sounds good.

[Wax On]

wax on is right

as usual...

[juse box]

i'm taking music theory right now as a matter of fact. i've just started about 2 months ago but i'm really learning a lot. i have an ear for music since many of my relatives are musicians. the problem is i couldn't figure out the correct keys to construct the progressions.

 

as for sampling, i usually figure out what key it's in and only use a piece of the sample. but lately i've been going back to my roots and making beats using most of the sample.

 

 

ayo kian, i just copied and pasted your comments to my music notes lol

[Kian]

i'm taking music theory right now as a matter of fact. i've just started about 2 months ago but i'm really learning a lot. i have an ear for music since many of my relatives are musicians. the problem is i couldn't figure out the correct keys to construct the progressions.

 

as for sampling, i usually figure out what key it's in and only use a piece of the sample. but lately i've been going back to my roots and making beats using most of the sample.

 

 

ayo kian, i just copied and pasted your comments to my music notes lol

 

music theory is the shit, youll have a lot of fun. make sure you memorize key signatures, it will make the transition from theory I to theory II smoothly.

 

i;ll see if i can dig up the chart of progressions.

Edited June 18, 2011 by Kian