If vinyl had never existed.............

[Steve]

For arguments sake, let's say that vinyl disappeared tomorrow. The only way you could get music is via the web. Now take that situation back 20 or 30 years. What do you think would have been the impact on hip hop if there were only MP3s back then? Would it even have come into existence? Do you think some of the classic songs you know and love would be around if producers weren't digging for samples on vinyl? Do you think it would still have worked out the same, just the equipment would be different?

[decisive]

that's a good question...

 

i guess djing as we know it would be different, because i can't see a 'hands on' interface for track position manipulation being created out of nothing just for mp3s... which would probably mean the scratch would never happen. maybe dials, like on basic cdjs, but i don't think the digital market would be striving for turntable-like emulation on a ttx or denon 3500 etc level...

i guess sampling would still be going, i mean, i think sampling in house music was going on at the same time as hip hop, and i wouldn't say the structure of hip hop was defined by 2 deck looping, more the technique of looping was born out of necessity for the sound. i don't think producers from many other genres have quite the same... snobbery, or at least unwritten codebook for sampling solely off vinyl, and so i think sampling would still be around...

i guess i can envision a slightly different sound... you know how 'glitchcore' sort of went from a technique to a genre to a technique, perhaps more experimentation down those lines of audio manipulation.

hmm. it's certainly a poser... however it's not campaign planning and development. here's one for you steve- what research designs and methodologies would you use to help design a campaign to raise awareness of excessive salt intake in the uk?!

[x2k]

I don't think it's possible to provide any serious answer to this.

 

The best guess I can make is that

 

a) people probably would've still found ways to play tunes back to back from 2 different sources

 

b) hip hop could've turned out the same or different

 

c) while scratch may have been invented differently and sound different I reckon it still would've/would be eventually been found (although I think juggling either wouldn't have been found or would be something totally different).

[Steve]

what research designs and methodologies would you use to help design a campaign to raise awareness of excessive salt intake in the uk?!

Lots of threads go off on tangents on here mate, but that was a bit unexpected. lol. I have absolutely no idea.

[decisive]

damnit, i better get back to it then!

[x2k]

i guess djing as we know it would be different, because i can't see a 'hands on' interface for track position manipulation being created out of nothing just for mp3s... which would probably mean the scratch would never happen.

 

I dissagree, I think once people started editing music they would want wants to navigate about quickly...leading to hands on controls (jog wheels, ribbon strips, whatever), I think that would've been inevitable (in the world in my head at least). Once these existed "scratching" in some form or another would come about...although possibly appearing in far, far few recordings than it does today (maybe only in a few experimental productions).

 

Fuck it, I dunno, I think the question is pretty stupid anyway since it would be impossible to come up with any serious answer, the answer I just gave would be just as valid if I'd responded by saying we'd all be listening to music made up from the sounds of people wiping their arses with gavel, no one can say.

[Steve]

I think the question is pretty stupid anyway since it would be impossible to come up with any serious answer

You already did come up with a serious answer.

 

I know it's completely hypothetical and any answer is gonna be pure speculation, but it's still interesting to see what people think (for me at least!).

[mattnice]

Loads of Tunes would never have been made.

 

i'll type a better response when i get home

[djxander]

No offense to you guys, I love you and all, but I think the answers so far have been totaly oblivious of the origins of hip hop.

 

Hip hop came out of the poorest living conditions in the US in the 70s. Computers and access to decent bandwidth etc., is still largely a luxury of business and the middle/upper class. Just like there are homeless people who collect aluminum cans and then sell them to recycling plants, do you think they would be able to do that if there were only "virtual cans"?

 

The answers above, especially decisive's, that the "sound necessitated the technique" is really really way off imo. This assumes there was a hip hop sound before people were rocking doubles. Before doubles, it was just funk, soul and disco tunes that Herc played. When bam/flash figgured out looping via rocking doubles it opened up the way for MCs to really come in and start party rocking as opposed to just talking between/over tunes and that is what started rap and the "hip hop sound" as we know it.

 

Likewise, to suggest that hip hop would have turned out like glitchcore is bogus. This is totaly ignoring the aesthetic preferences of urban, black & latino americans. If there is one thing "the hood" can simply not care any less about, its glitchcore or anything else that passes itself off as "Intelligent" Dance Music.

 

Anyway, those are rebuttles, here's my stance. Without the analogue property of turntables and their general availability throughout all classes in society, there would be no hip hop. Hip hop developed because turntables were readily available in the hood and so were records. Just like the homeless guy who picks up the cans to make a few bucks from the recycling plant, the innercity youth made what they could out of what was readily available. The sheer suggestion of access to computers and decent internet access to this demographic suggests a totaly different quality of life from the one that caused the development of hip hop and therefore is simply absurd.

 

P.S. I only attack the statements, never the person. PLUR

[x2k]

Just like the homeless guy who picks up the cans to make a few bucks from the recycling plant, the innercity youth made what they could out of what was readily available. The sheer suggestion of access to computers and decent internet access to this demographic suggests a totaly different quality of life from the one that caused the development of hip hop and therefore is simply absurd.

 

When I was reading your post I thought you'd taken it far to seriously and wasn't providing the best arguement at all, then I read this and you really smacked the nail on the head there...I dunno if it'd would've been the case but it's certainly a very very valid point. Instead of gangster rap we would've had much more yuppie rap.

[mattnice]

[quote name='djxander'

P.S. I only attack the statements, never the person. PLUR

 

 

what a gaylord

[MrDee]

If vinyl had never existed.............

 

i would have a lot more space

[decisive]

okay xander, i see your point. however, i need to clarify some of my points and think that you perhaps missed the point of some of my arguments. I wasn't looking at any social issues regarding the music- i was taking it as read that basically instead of vinyl, digital music was the norm. your argument that dudes from the hood couldn't have afforded ipods is fallacious because in those days an ipod would have been the size of ireland and taken 4000bn miles of ticker tape to program. back in the 70s there was no such thing as home computing- i was taking it as an 'alternative universe' idea

by sound necessitating the technique, i refer to the old school djs like herc/flash etc looping the parts of the records that they liked the best and noticed got the best response from the partygoers. to my eyes your quote

 

"When bam/flash figgured out looping via rocking doubles it opened up the way for MCs to really come in and start party rocking as opposed to just talking between/over tunes and that is what started rap and the "hip hop sound" as we know it. "

 

was my original point- the sound itself was the important factor in the development. rather than the turntable dictating the structure of the sound, the sound was almost made in spite of the turntable.

 

with your glitchcore comment, i would also disagree from the standpoint that you are putting an abstract concept into the reference zone of today's climate. i know many many hip hop fans who do not give two shits about hardcore turntablism, because experimental turntablism is realllly stretching the boundaries of what is hip hop. the experimental aspect of turntablism attracts more people than the hip hop culture, imo, and it is this experimentation that i was latching onto- what was originally a mistake, or something stumbled on, became the scratch, just as what was originally a digital artifact became glitchcore.

 

[FreeiPod]

[quote name='djxander'

P.S. I only attack the statements, never the person. PLUR

 

 

what a gaylord

 

seconded

[Steve]

i was taking it as read that basically instead of vinyl, digital music was the norm. your argument that dudes from the hood couldn't have afforded ipods is fallacious because in those days an ipod would have been the size of ireland and taken 4000bn miles of ticker tape to program. back in the 70s there was no such thing as home computing- i was taking it as an 'alternative universe' idea

Exactly. Both answers are equally valid. It just depends how you interpret the question.

[djxander]

[quote name='djxander'

P.S. I only attack the statements, never the person. PLUR

 

what a gaylord

 

seconded

 

3rd. LMAO plur... I deserve a pat on the back for that.

[TBearOne8III]

okay, going off of the whole digital is the norm idea. i would say that there would still be a hip hop. and yes, there would still be sampling. there probally wouldnt be any scratching. its hard to say that scratching would even be invented. if you look at majority of the music thats out today, its all digital anyway. fruity loops, reason, rebirth. even down to your mpc's , 303's and 404's. so saying that digital was the norm 20 to 30 years ago, i can still see a hip hop. cant tell you what it would sound like. but it would still exist.

 

now, coming from the other standpoint. not being able to afford a computer or whatever. i still see it. hip hop would most likely evolve from more organic sounds. ie, drumming on buckets, beat boxin, and not to mention regular instruments. then theres always gonna be that "street hustler" connection who would provide the necessary computers and digital equipment to bring it all up to speed anyway.

 

am i still on the original question? or did i go off on some other shit?? dont really feel like scrolling up and re reading all of that.

[Liam]

If you believe what people tell you about where hip hop originated from, then I guess you would say that the social conditions were already there, and the tools are somewhat superfluous.

 

I say that's utter bullshit. Technology has always been hand in hand with music. Just look at the work of Beethoven, it could never have been played without advances in the hammer action of pianos

[djxander]

If you believe what people tell you about where hip hop originated from, then I guess you would say that the social conditions were already there, and the tools are somewhat superfluous.

 

The coestistence of the social conditions and the availability of the tools led to the creation of the music. Hip hop happened accidentally. Herc didn't plan to create a movement or a culture or whatever. Without turntables, the need for music as a release for innercity youth would still be there, but like TBear said, it probably would have been satisfied in the form of drumming on buckets and stuff so the music would have probably been very different and it would have inspired a different dance, probably different lyrics, and I can't see that it would have inspired much graffiti, etc. I simply don't think that the resulting music/culture would be similar enough to hip hop to really call hip hop.

[Liam]

^^^^

absolutely

 

technology is inspiring, even if people do get po faced about it

[djdiggla]

For arguments sake, let's say that vinyl disappeared tomorrow. The only way you could get music is via the web. Now take that situation back 20 or 30 years. What do you think would have been the impact on hip hop if there were only MP3s back then? Would it even have come into existence? Do you think some of the classic songs you know and love would be around if producers weren't digging for samples on vinyl? Do you think it would still have worked out the same, just the equipment would be different?

 

I think mixtape DJs would be the pre-eminent thang... Cutting and splicing audio-tape and shit. People would be digging for reel-to-reels and 8-traks! I also think live PA sets and live hiphop bands would be much more common. I think a lot of nu skool stuff would be different and my not exist, but I think the old skool shit would be basically the same and I think the heavily computer-made hiphop of current era would have come into being earlier (asically in the place of nu skool--sorry Jazzy).