trevor dane Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 id like to put some mixes on cd with artwork and try to push it like an album, i see mixes for sale in record stores but is there any risk of getting sued or having to share the $? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trevor dane Posted August 24, 2016 Author Share Posted August 24, 2016 also curious about routines Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vekked Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 id like to put some mixes on cd with artwork and try to push it like an album, i see mixes for sale in record stores but is there any risk of getting sued or having to share the $? Yes it's illegal (in most places at least), and there's a "risk" of getting sued in the sense that theoretically you could... but think of it like this (disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer): it costs 1000s (maybe 10,000+?) for a label or something to sue you, so unless you're making that kind of money they're not going to lose money to sue you to prove a point. So even if you somehow got on their radar for selling your mixes. they'd have to actual put the time and money into suing you as well, which is very unlikely. This is just the general advice I've gotten from any veterans I've talked to about music copyright in general. Unless you're making real money you don't have much to worry about. The only person I've known of getting into copyright issues of all the people I've met so far is someone who actually looped a relatively well known song for a beat and submitted the song to a song writing competition thrown by the organization who is in charge of distributing music royalties. In other words, it took them being about as shameless as you possibly can be in order for them to get caught. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexinoodle Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 Standard answerNo it is not legal to sell mixes of other peoples work, the copyright owners must be informed and payment agreed. Real answerMix is a mix is a mix, if you aren't planning on pressing up 1000s and distributing to suppliers, it is unlikely anybody will even notice, and reality is that a bunch of these guys know that their stuff is going on mixes (Assuming you mean contemporary dance music of one form or another) At this point on most fora you can now que the copyright police and a 128 page thread will ensue, by which time i have already put out a mix, made a couple of quid and nobody is any the wiser, but some forum lawyer somewhere made his very very valid point. Edit* Non of this was aimed at Vekked, posting at the same time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 Re: second question, you can't sell audio of a routine if you're using someone else's song, same goes with trying to get paid for YouTube hits. If you've fully produced the routine with your own music then you can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 Also it is legally possible to sell a mix cd if you get each track cleared by their respective owners, just like if a company put out a compilation. But these days to sell enough to clear that you either need to be doing something commercially viable (eg edm hits volume 1 type stuff) and have good distribution or you're doing it through someone big like fabric. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trevor dane Posted August 25, 2016 Author Share Posted August 25, 2016 wow i didnt know that about youtube hits i feel like thats not right, pranksters get paid without paying the people who give them reactions and shit like that, thats wack so i guess baaur got paid big when harlem shake vids went viral? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Symatic Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 so i guess baaur got paid big when harlem shake vids went viral? i think he got sued because he got so much exposure off that viral thing that the copyright lawyers would say he was making money as a direct result of his unauthorized tune being rinsed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexinoodle Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 Lets be perfectly clear here, do whatever the f**k you want, if it gets to the point where lawyers get involved, they can't take anything you don't have or made, and the press you would get, more than makes up for it.As i said, there will always be somebody who says "No don't do it, it is illegal, it will kill pandas" just get on with your life and do what you gotta do 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djdiggla Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 id like to put some mixes on cd with artwork and try to push it like an album, i see mixes for sale in record stores but is there any risk of getting sued or having to share the $? Short answer:It's illegal. I, personally, would put "promo" or whatever on it and not worry about it. Fact is tho, anyone can be sued regardless of if it's justified. I would not be too worried about it. There are bigger fish to fry. Long answer:For a while about 10 years back there were some stores getting cease and desist orders (don't think actually sued tho). Basically record reps were going straight to the D section of a store and just pulling anything by anyone named "DJ _____". Havent heard of anything (in the States) in years tho and rightfully so since it was pointless. Never heard of a DJ slinging self-released CDs getting sued. Seems like people started doing some legal rambling on the CDs tho after that-- "For Promotional Use Only" is the standard attempt to avoid culpability. ebay but DJs sometimes have language along the lines of you're not buying the music but paying for the physical media and the technical skill of mixing and scratching and the music itself is for promotional use only. I think that's probably less effective than saying it's for promo purposes because you are still illegally distributing music. IMO Lawsuits usually have two three purposes: 1) where's the money and 2) "Arbitration by threat of lawsuit". #2 is what this would fall into where you probably would get a cease and desist first and even if you got served if you yanked the CDs they would likely drop the case since there is no money in it. The 3rd purpose is a "spite suit" where the entire point is just to be a dick and ruin someone's life but you aren't gonna have enemies of that level for just putting out a mix. I don't know if there is any legal precedent here for DJs but as I understand it all clubs, bars, coffeeshops, etc that have live music pay ASCAP or BMI and are thus covered should copyrighted material be played or performed. I believe this is why you see live show recordings released with an occasional cover song (and why they can even legally do a cover song in the first place). So arguably it's another layer of protection to put out a live mix recorded in a venue. Note: I'm NOT a lawyer and don't practice law but work in a quazi-legal field that deals with, drafts and negotiates a variety of legally binding contracts and agreements. However, my job has nothing to do with music or entertainment and so this just my opinion based on what I've read for personal interest and surmised. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phology Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 Technically, yes, it's illegal. But so is sampling, and people get away with that all the time. BUT... It all depends on exposure and advertising. Who, and how many people are going to hear/buy it. If you put out a large ad campaign, eventually someone involved will see it and probably contact you. But if it's fairly low key I doubt you'll have any problems. As Jon said... Also it is legally possible to sell a mix cd if you get each track cleared by their respective owners, just like if a company put out a compilation. But these days to sell enough to clear that you either need to be doing something commercially viable (eg edm hits volume 1 type stuff) and have good distribution or you're doing it through someone big like fabric. ......and a commercially viable project would be a big logistical task. Professional CD mastering and manufacture, artwork, licensing, distribution, etc, etc..... How many CD's are you planning on producing? 1000? 10,000? Do you have a budget? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phology Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 I don't know if there is any legal precedent here for DJs but as I understand it all clubs, bars, coffeeshops, etc that have live music pay ASCAP or BMI and are thus covered should copyrighted material be played or performed. In the UK you'd have to pay PRS or PPL? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djdiggla Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 IDK? I'd think so. Wax On took me to some pub that has no music at all because they refuse to pay _____. (somebody) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jam Burglar Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 ASCAP and BMI will also try to shake you down and scare settlements out of you. I run across a few people online who've had this happen. Basically, you get a scary letter from them and a settlement demand. I doubt they actually pursue litigation but it always seems to freak out the person who gets the letter. Seriously though, in this day and age, who buys DJ mixes? Just give em away! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danswift Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 Seriously though, in this day and age, who buys DJ mixes? Just give em away!Nailed it .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trevor dane Posted August 25, 2016 Author Share Posted August 25, 2016 damn, so say you work for a label and go to a calvin harris show and hes playing a song off your label making 10s of thousands a night and you get a video could he be sued and lose? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danswift Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 Thats not gonna happen because the clubs have to pay for a music license for them to be allowed to play any music either by a DJ or live performers or whoever here in the UK its the PRS who issue the license to the venues and even the major supermarkets and chain stores are obligated by law to also have the PRS licence I cant speak for the equivalent organizations to the PRS overseas but I would imagine that the laws are pretty much more or less the same ? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djdiggla Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 ^^What he said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 Thats not gonna happen because the clubs have to pay for a music license for them to be allowed to play any music either by a DJ or live performers or whoever here in the UK its the PRS who issue the license to the venues and even the major supermarkets and chain stores are obligated by law to also have the PRS licence I cant speak for the equivalent organizations to the PRS overseas but I would imagine that the laws are pretty much more or less the same ?Yep any public place in the UK playing music needs a prs license. Djing etc is covered by the venues license. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexinoodle Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 Thats not gonna happen because the clubs have to pay for a music license for them to be allowed to play any music either by a DJ or live performers or whoever here in the UK its the PRS who issue the license to the venues and even the major supermarkets and chain stores are obligated by law to also have the PRS licence I cant speak for the equivalent organizations to the PRS overseas but I would imagine that the laws are pretty much more or less the same ?Yep any public place in the UK playing music needs a prs license. Djing etc is covered by the venues license. No it isn't, legally a DJ is supposed to pay for a ProDub licence, that is unless all of the media they play is the original purchased media, any CDRs or MP3 or Hard drives or any storage media of any kind (Yep even cassette) and you need the ProDub.The PRS and MCPS were running scare tactics for the first couple of years, threatening to go after venues that did not ask DJs for the licence. Four points on why this took the ultimate piss1 If you own an original recording in the UK, you can legally make a copy for back up purposes anyway, so they are just being pricks to DJs.2 There was little to no control at all on payments, so if you took a ton of Spice Girls MP3s and played them all night, the Spice Girls got nothing.3 If you use MP3, buy sell play, you are legally obliged to pay the Motion Picture Entertainment Group for the privilege, hmmm wait, what ? Yes indeedy, just because they do not enforce it (and maybe never will) does not mean that you are not legally obliged (Anybody here care to guess how much of a cut the MPEG got, nothing, so legally the MCPS and PRS are breaking the law hahaha)4 And here is the biscuit covered in cream and sprayed with gold flakes, you still need the ProDub even if you are only playing your own created music !!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danswift Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 Wow thats some crazy shit ! I had no idea that a ProDub license even existed tbh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 Eeesh, I had no idea. I've never heard of that before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djdiggla Posted August 26, 2016 Share Posted August 26, 2016 That sounds vaguely familar to me. Can't recall if there's a similar in the states. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexinoodle Posted August 26, 2016 Share Posted August 26, 2016 Yeah it went under the radar for a lot of people, I was playing a lot at the time, and the venues were being complete little bitches about it, MCPS and PRS still refuse to this day to comment on the unfair payment system or indeed the fact that they are trying to enforce an unenforcable law, simply because the very nature of it including MP3 in its wording, makes it unlawful (Yep, luckily i was tight with a legal expert from Holland at the time)So while it is still a requirement officially, no venue will dare ask you for it.It was originally named the MP3 Passport, that's how thick as fuck they are, they even used MP3 in its original name hahahaha 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jam Burglar Posted August 26, 2016 Share Posted August 26, 2016 Sheeeeeet, I got Pro Dub, High Speed Dub, all that shit. You know how I do. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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