well one intersting thing i can add to this thread is my dad the other day was chatting with one his friends that works for Unysis (spelling?) and the guy told him that while he was at a training convention for new hardware and software, this tech showed him how to tweak anti-virus programs to work properly, because the thing is most anti-virus software out on the market, even norton corporate edition can find and capture alot of viruses, the weird thing is they dont show you that you are infected. SO its not so much that the anti-virus softwares cant detect them its just they dont show you your infected. My dads computer has been very well taken care of, regular virus scans (norton), had lavasoft firewall, and as well used spysweeper daily i think. ANyways long story short i come back from school one week, do a virus scan because the comp seemed a bit laggy and find that there were two viruses, i think trojans. Well wutever i erase them and get along with my business. Come back two weeks later... By the way big ups too Sigma and others on this forum very helpful info you guys are great. ... So i decide to use Kaspersky, to test it out, turns out there were 45 different infected files, with trojans and backdoors. So i had to reformat my comp, and im going to install kaspersky the second my dad gets his internet back. Moral of story fuck NOrton..... And thanks alot sigma.