Guest petesasqwax Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 PHYSICAL AND BEHAVIORAL CIRCUIT MODELING OF THE SP-12 SAMPLERDavid T. Yeh, John Nolting, Julius O. Smith Center for Computer Research in Music and Acoustics (CCRMA) Stanford University, Stanford, CA https://ccrma.stanford.edu/~dtyeh/papers/yeh07_icmc_sp12.pdf --- This is on some insane academic level nerdery - the likes of which I not only thoroughly applaud, but wholeheartedly recommend in others. Also related: this apparently mothballed project seeking to accurately model the SP1200 (which may or may not be unnecessary these days, depending on whether you feel that current emulations are a fair representation). I have to admit, although one of my best friends has an SP1200, he's in Oslo and I've never been in a position to A-B it with emulations (although I intend to rectify this in the summer as I'll be visiting him and lugging my laptop with me in order to try out said experiments). 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ Rock Well Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 I German guy I used to talk to on a different forum had both an SP-1200 and an MPC 60, when Maschine got its emulations he did quite a few A/B tests for those of us interested. Both were actually closer than all of us expected... If you don't push it too hard and once the sounds are in the mix the SP mode works really well, although when you listened to the naked samples back to back, there was just something slightly off the software recreation. Like they were commendably close but the emulation was a bit contrived - maybe like comparing an old aniline synth with a good soft recreation or DVS vs. Vinyl. The MP mode was better IMO, although you have to accept one flaw that's been well documented in nerdy sampler-net. The NI emulation captures the 60 behaviour quite well but it does seem to over-brighten samples. Apparently the MPC60 brightens samples on the way in but it's master output rolls some of those frequencies back a bit on the way out. Allegedly NI overlooked how much the output affects the sound... I dunno the truth in that, but in some A/B tests the emulation was a bit brighter. Overall I think any software emulations of these machines are great tools to have in the box, but I think of them as alternate flavours of vintage sampler rather than specific emulations. I've also noticed that when I've made beats that people actually notice the 'vintage sound' on them, there's been a lot more going on then just a vintage sampler emulation, particularly a good dollop of saturation and some kind of vintage compressor vst. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest petesasqwax Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 See, for my own purposes I probably don't really need anything more than 12-bit resampling as that's the key element I'm interested in. It's what gave all those sounds the crunch and ring that I expect to hear from one of those samplers. The Maschine emulations are really interesting although I don't feel like I've hit upon the setting/plugin combination that works for me completely yet. I have no doubt that I'll get there. I do, however, love the idea of somebody doing thorough technical studies in order to replicate the EXACT sound and tone of the SP etc. I wouldn't want loads of settings, I'd just want what the SP had Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Symatic Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 i wonder how much these samplers have an effect on scratch samples - because some scratch records would be arranged with a sampler, and i think some have a nice crunchy sound that works across the whole record. like hee haw for example. maybe it was built in a sampler which kinda made the whole thing sound a certain way... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest petesasqwax Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 That's an interesting point - I don't think I've ever seen anyone actually asking those people who made the scratch records what they used. I'd like to know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ Rock Well Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 I've always assumed that all the content on classic scratch records must've come from a hardware sampler at some point. Wax to sampler to tape or DAT I guess. To put it in context, the vocals on Enter the 36 Chambers were tracked into an Akai S1000! Dirtstyle was probably done on some battered old Ensoniq EPS or ASR or something! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest petesasqwax Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 To put it in context, the vocals on Enter the 36 Chambers were tracked into an Akai S1000!I love shit like this! Have you read 'Check The Technique'? Somebody should do one for scratch records Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest petesasqwax Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ Rock Well Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 To put it in context, the vocals on Enter the 36 Chambers were tracked into an Akai S1000!I love shit like this! Have you read 'Check The Technique'? Somebody should do one for scratch records No, I haven't but it sounds like I should do! Coming in contact with a lot of much older music at work and the like, it makes me realise that actually somebody should be documenting as much as they can about all and any music scenes whilst the people involved are still alive. First hand info, preferably from those of sound mind and without weird agendas or egos, should be gathered whenever possible IMO. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeClockwork Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 I've always assumed that all the content on classic scratch records must've come from a hardware sampler at some point. Wax to sampler to tape or DAT I guess. To put it in context, the vocals on Enter the 36 Chambers were tracked into an Akai S1000! Dirtstyle was probably done on some battered old Ensoniq EPS or ASR or something! I love the crunch you get from Dirt Style scratch records. That and the weight of the records makes them a joy to cut with. However, please don't buy the reissue versions of any of them because they sound shite. I found out the hard way after buying reissues of Turkey Cuts and Superseal (the latter of which was dished as an added bonus). The vinyl isn't as nice to cut with as the originals either. Too heavy. But yeah, I've always wanted to know what kit they used. Q-Bert's always used an SP-12, maybe that was involved at some stage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest petesasqwax Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 Coming in contact with a lot of much older music at work and the like, it makes me realise that actually somebody should be documenting as much as they can about all and any music scenes whilst the people involved are still alive. First hand info, preferably from those of sound mind and without weird agendas or egos, should be gathered whenever possible IMO.That's almost word for word what Brian Coleman said about his reasons for writing Check The Technique! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike-L Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 I have a 60 and an s900. The main thing I notice is not so much the 12 bit sound on its own but how HEAVY they sound when you overdrive the inputs a little when you sample. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cutdisco Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 Coming in contact with a lot of much older music at work and the like, it makes me realise that actually somebody should be documenting as much as they can about all and any music scenes whilst the people involved are still alive. First hand info, preferably from those of sound mind and without weird agendas or egos, should be gathered whenever possible IMO. When it comes to scratch related stuff, i guess djpedia/Andre sirois is the person to do that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cutdisco Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 weird quote, sorry guysi mean in response to Rockwell, djpedia/Andre sirois is the person to do that 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kebzer Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 I had the priviledge to own at some point both an SP1200 & an MPC60mk1. In all honesty, forget about modelling them, nothing will ever emulate them correctly, especially the "ring" effect of the SP, as the variables are far too many to be modelled correctly. The SP would create different results based on the slightest differences on: 1. Sample Input volume2. Sample input pitch3. Sample output pitch4. Sample output filter (which of the 1-8 outputs is chosen) You can easily "recreate" the SP feel with a ring modulator, but you'll never get that gritty sound. There is a very good reason why they worth now over 3 grands and that's because they cannot be emulated, no matter what. Though, if you are interrested in 12bit crunchyness, try and get a Sequential Circuits Studio 440 (I owned one also - still not cheap). It was the only which could resample real time any incoming sample source at 12bits, so you wouldn't have to actually record something to get the 12bit effect, but you can use it as an effects processor. Regarding those dirt style records, the keyword is Ensoniq EPS (not EPS16 or EPS16+). They are really cheap and have some fun, but nothing too nice or serious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest petesasqwax Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 Dope, thanks Kebz. In theory you could replicate the circuitry physically, couldn't you? I mean, if you knew your shit and knew what was inside an SP you could, in theory, create a stomp box that would take care of some of the lofi element of it, although that all depends on getting hold of the same chips that EMU used which, I appreciate, may not be possible these days Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ Rock Well Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 Kebzer - the EPS makes sense as I know it was D-Styles first proper sampler he made all the old Third Sight beats on, etc. Probably affordable in the early 90s too, once newer models had comes out. I agree that nothing quite emulates any of the old machines perfectly, especially the SP. It's one of those bits of hardware that has sonic traits that would be iffy in any other context but it makes them sound cool and that cool is definitely lost a bit in emulations. Personally, it's actually my least favourite of all the vintage samplers and it think it's the machine that suffers the most from that phenomenon where people judge the quality of the beat with their eyes (on the sampler) rather than there ears - as in anything that comes out of it must be wonderful... I think some of the modern SP crowd (definitely not all though!) forget that they don't have the talent of Pete Rock and even more importantly aren't tracking their SP beats in a pro analogue recording studio operated be a skilled sound engineer. But I digress, if you do want the real SP sound, you will have to buy it - at more like £4K a lot of the time now too! If however, you're not stuck on emulating the sounds of the past exactly and specific machines in particular, I think you can definitely catch some of the overall flavour of music made on old samplers with software plugins and other modern hardware like pedals, etc. As long as you stick to similar working practices and have a reasonable ear and knowledge of how different effects work, especially in conjunction with one another. Horses for courses I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest petesasqwax Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 I like the idea of having a pedal that goes the extra mile. I'm sure the EMU chips are long gone, but how about a peer - the MPC60, for example? Having said that, I have no fucking clue how to actually do any of this stuff so who am I even kidding? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kebzer Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 The SP was seized from production cause E-MU run out of the original filter chips and when they searched for a replacement they couldn't get anything to sound even similar. Actually, legend says that the second batch of SPs (the black ones - they grey are the originals) featured a different run of those filter chips and that's why they don't sound that punchy & fat. See, a lot of people drool over the 12bitness of the SP and the ring effect, but the output filters are hands down the best feature on it. You literally don't need to EQ/compress your drums, period. This is what I tell to people: if you can afford such an expensive unit just for your drums, you don't need to use an SP for anything else. As for the MPC60, I'm sorry to say it, but you guys are probably gonna be dissapointed when you hear it. An s950 is miles ahead soundwise,the 60 was never anything special soundwise and I'd say that it actually sounds muddy. What was special about it though is the sequencer. That brick for a groovebox actually had a 1MHz CPU, which made things very "unstable" when you tried to run a lot of different midi notes at the same time. And that's when magic happens. It drifts so randomly (because of the weak CPU processing power) that it actually sounds almost like a "very" good drummer. But it is a nightmare to try and sync it with a DAW session. BTW, both are huuuuuuge in size, for no apparent reason. But they look absolutely gorgeous....Damn, I miss those fuckers now.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest petesasqwax Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 Haha - damn! I have nerded out about samplers a hell of a lot over the years, but I had no idea that the "swing" on the 60 actually came from a lack of processing power! That's awesome. I have come close to grabbing an s900 or a 950 over the years as they rarely go for much, but I've talked myself out of it. Like a lot of these classic units, I basically don't want to go back to floppies and zip drives again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kebzer Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 Haha - damn! I have nerded out about samplers a hell of a lot over the years, but I had no idea that the "swing" on the 60 actually came from a lack of processing power! That's awesome. I have come close to grabbing an s900 or a 950 over the years as they rarely go for much, but I've talked myself out of it. Like a lot of these classic units, I basically don't want to go back to floppies and zip drives again. Get an s950, forget about the floppies, fire it up with the test tone alone and voilla! you just got yourself the thickest sine wave bass there is out there! (shhhh....keep it a secret yo). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest petesasqwax Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 Hehe - that sine is dope, but my Minitaur would never forgive me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kebzer Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 Ahm, if you already own a Minitaur, forget the s950, lol. But speaking of 12bit options, I would only get a hardware sampler for that, as I find all software emulators trying "too much" to emulate 12bits and in the end they sound absolutely generic (and horrible to a seasoned ear). Any hardware piece will give you 10x times better result. As for floppies, you can get a modded one with a flash drive. Virtually all such machines can work with a flash drive. Last but not least, if you can't afford an SP1200, look for an E-MU EMAX rack sampler or keyboard (they usually go for less than a grand, but they are rare). And if you can't afford even that, look for a BALDWIN IKE, they were rebadged EMAXs sold in various b-side markets. I've done some homework myself on samplers, lol. Then I decided to go back to turntables, lolol! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest petesasqwax Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 OH SHIT! The Baldwin is something I would absolutely fucking LOVE, man - it's what Dibbs made all his shit on! There are a gang of samplers I want for loads of different reasons, but the Baldwin is definitely up on the list and EPS is on there too. Rack options make the most sense space-wise, but if we're talking about buying hardware samplers it's pretty clear that sense has gone right out of the window Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kebzer Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 I still have a fetish about the EMAX cause back in 2010 I won one on ebay for 400 and the mofo never send it to me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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