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When to sample; when not to sample - what works for you?


Guest petesasqwax

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Guest petesasqwax

This will probably sit here for years untouched but I'm interested in general opinions so I'm going to ask anyway.

I'm in the process of changing my setup - switching DAWs, soundcards and also changing the method in which I produce music. It's been a long time coming & I've threatened to do it for years although I've always backed out at the last minute because I hate the idea of having any kind of learning curve coming between me and making music. I have a large family & therefore a lot of commitments - when I get time to spend on making music I always opted to do that, even though the programme I always used was buggy, unreliable and just flat out froze up and/or crashed half the time. rather than spend the time learning a new DAW (and way of working) I convinced myself that it was better (more efficient) to put up with constant crashes, frustration and so on. quite clearly, that's bullshit logic and I'm in the process of sorting it, but that's an aside...

the thing I want to discuss with folk is the concept of sampling. when I started making beats, I wanted to make things that sounded like the producers I was inspired by - prince paul, dust brothers, beatminerz etc. the usual suspects for most of us, I would imagine. as a result of that, I would dig for samples and work on trying to flip them harder than anyone else had done then before, but I could only go so far with that approach. I would ultimately find that, even though I would filter out the bass of a sample so that I could use it on its own and make my own basslines etc., it left me pretty limited in what I wanted to do. i was never great at getting samples from 2 different sources in key and often just ended up spending ages making something i wasn't all that happy with in the end (and would generally scrap). before long, I started moving towards using single note samples from various instruments instead and learned how to process them in order to make them sound like the samples i used. by doing that, I would obviously know what key the bassline (for example) was and therefore it was a lot easier to find other samples to fit with it (providing that they were multisamples too, obviously).

over time, I found myself becoming less interested in sounding like the producers who first got me interested in making music and more interested in the artists they sampled. I didn't want to sound like a hip-hop track sample some psych rock loop, for example, I wanted to sound like the psych rock band (albeit a stripped down, very drum-heavy version of it).

These days I sample basically nothing from vinyl or other music sources at all, aside from drums although I'm kind of moving away from that now, too - looking to use single hit samples of vintage kits in order to work in the same way as a drummer would play (i.e. not changing the sound for every song as i would previously when using a different chopped-up drum loop for the basis of each track)

what I'm wondering (in what is a very long-winded way) is:

can other people relate to what I'm saying here?

how was your approach to sampling changed over the years (if at all)?

have your listening habits changed and, if so, has that affected how/what you produce?

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ah I've wrestled with this multiple times over the years! I tend to do what I'm feeling now - I am much more into composition and figuring chords out nowadays, I keep halfheartedly putting time into the keyboard only to forget everything by the next time I regiment some practice - but sometimes sampling's the only way to scratch an itch. I find it's very much a lifestyle though, and if you half egg it it just doesn't work. I think it's causal, not just correlative, that when I was making my best beats I was spending 4-5 hours and buying 15+ records a week digging. You use a different part of your brain, I reckon, and you have to keep it really sharp.

 

When you start to feel limited by sampling I reckon it's because you've 'forgotten' what makes you like sampled stuff, and you're not being fulfilled by the process anymore. I've been hit HARD by that, and without strong instrument skills to fall back on things get tough, because it's hard to match the quality of your sampled beats with totally original composition so suddenly you feel like a fraud, but...

 

I'm rambling, but I think it all comes down to being too left brained about making music in the first place; the more you try to objectively improve your production skills, the more disconnected you become from the point of music. All the 'you' and 'your' in this post is just general btw, not specifically you... it's more specifically me.

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Guest petesasqwax
I can relate to the “need to scratch an itch" sentiment loads and find that, whilst I don’t want to do it much in my own tunes, I feel the necessity to satisfy that part of me by doing mixes wherein I use samples instead of using full tracks. I can't imagine ever not doing it – bottom line is, I still love flipping samples.


In my own tracks, though, I've been essentially sample-free for years without realising it. In using multi-samples the way that I do, it’s basically the same playing the instruments, albeit doing it in a really long-hand, laborious fashion whereby I record each note one at a time (if you get what I mean).


I’ve had a bass and electric guitar for years and have used the bass a bit in my own productions over the years, though never to the extent that I would claim that I can “play bass” to any major degree. I’m ok on keys (but wouldn’t want to try being in a band and playing them live) but the bottom line is – all I need to be able to do, in a production context, is “get a job done” i.e. get something recorded that allows me to achieve what I need in terms of making a track. I’m currently learning how to play guitar whilst studying as much about audio engineering as I can in order to get the most of what little skills I have.


looking back, I really like some of the beats I made when I was sampling mostly from vinyl, but I also realised that I started taking up the approach I have now at a really stage without noticing. I always used to prefer taking single hits and then chopping/pitching them to make other melodies. It didn’t feel like “my music” if I didn’t (and it pissed me off no end when I heard other people use “my” samples).


The thing you said about having forgotten what you liked about sample stuff is very valid. I guess I summed up how I feel initially in that I started off wanting to make the records my favourite producers made; now I’m more interested in making the records they sampled.
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I used to want to sample breaks, then more like bits, then very small isolated sounds... now I mostly want to field sample things or myself or strange stuff in the studio with a contact mic and such.

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we've chatted on FB before about your DAW situation - i really think its a process of refining work flow and looking at the bits that take you ages and are holding you up creatively and maybe seeing if theres some specifc kit that can address that. I just found Geist which i;m hoping will replace boring protools editing and my laborious rewire setup.

 

In terms of pregression i started in a similar route but rather i went the direction of i guess what is the bass music scene. I came from a hip hop back ground, but everyone around me that was making beats was making DnB. Those guys used samples a lot back then for drums and even bass sampling techno and then resampleing and filtering and i pinched a fair bit from learning how they were making tracks with depth using layers and how to edit breaks - back then its was about making spliced breaks like the tramen (we;; worth a revist thinking about it). Thoses guys were using the es4000 and i was desperate to get one but could never find the cash and set about learning just using computers. I went through a phase of raiding the CD dept in the library and sampling a shit load of what i thought was random jazz and soul from there. I'd edit the fuck out of it filter, chop some drums and edit etc ..but i realised that finding samples in key was a bitch and that the process was pretty limiting. I was still making bits of DnB too and kinda convinced there was a good cross over and i was hearing that sound coming form some of the earlier loopers.Thats when i stopped really using samples and wasn't afraid to have a go at forging my own sounds from scratch - a couple of friends were really into making patches and we'd spend hours doing that (it feels soo unproductive these days, when u feel like u should be doing a tune). Most of my stuff still has a way to go and as the years go by i've slowed down and am forgetting/lost some skills (need to do a protools side chain tutorial !!). I view it all as a work in progress and that i doubt i'll ever be satisfied, but as long as its fun its worth doing.

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to be honest, I'm 90% settled on Ableton. I love how easy it is to assign the midi functions to my controllers and that alone is a massive draw for me. the only reason that ProTools is still even mildly attractive is that I've never worked with Ableton recording instruments so it's an as-yet unknown quantity (to me), whereas I've done that with ProTools and it's very impressive.

the thing about making patches has always been interesting to me, but more in a Max/MSP kind of a way - making effects and virtual instruments. I've always wanted to actually physically make them, though. my friend Carlo has done some synth building and the concept of that totally blows me away. I very nearly bought some Neve channel strips - replacement parts from a desk - which I fancied making a preamp out of. still do fancy it, but I don't realistically have the time so I'll have to put that project on the backburner for now. don't get me wrong, btw - I'm not some kind of soldering don, I just work with some great engineers and have a fair bit of patience.

btw - diggla, that contact mic stuff sounds seriously interesting. A mate of mine made a sample pack using his bike and a series of mics (including contact mic) - the sound of hitting the seat with his bike lock sounds amazing as a kick drum. he used a close mic'd condenser with a contact mic, if i remember rightly. on the field recording side - that interests me a lot too, but my only attempts at it reminded me of 2 things: 1, my mics are all shit; 2, minidiscs compress things horrifically and are, therefore, not the choice of field recorders

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I never sampled two songs in one track, seems impossible for me. Now I just cut the sample that I like then try to play some piano on top of it to understand what keys would work and play some vst's instruments on top of it. I stick to this approach but it's hard for me to make something decent because I don't have composing skills and all my instruments on top sounds meh.

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Guest petesasqwax

I generally ended up in that situation too mate - the only times I was really happy with adding other things to samples I'd taken from records was when I got musician friends in to play something over the top, but that didn't always work either.

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I packed my decks up a while ago due to space and the fact that finding good vinyl around here sucks. Now it's YouTube or my iTunes. When I got Maschine it was a case of finding something interesting and chopping it up, I've never been a fan of just looping things. However since Ableton Live 9 and Max For Live everything has changed! Now I take sounds and completely destroy them, then mold, shape and twisted them into something new. It could just be the attack of a snare of the tail of a kick. I've never been a fan of sample cds but now I just pick random sounds that come free with Future Music and see how much I can change them.

 

I was describing it to a friend and the best I could come up with was this "It's like looking at a painting but then being able to see each brush stroke and then being able to move those strokes around. Some times you just end up with a nasty blob of colour, but sometimes you create a amazing new painting that is nothing like the original but it still has the same brush stroke just in a different order."

 

It's at the point now where I'm not even sure how to classify the music I make into a genre, I just leave it blank on sound cloud now. It's bloody fun tho!

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Guest petesasqwax

I'm not sure if you realise how much of a superb advert everything you just said is for your music but there's no way I can resist checking your soundcloud after that!

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Guest petesasqwax

Regardless, there's some nice stuff there mate. "Static in my head" stood out in particular. Your sig link is off though - found the right one from your tumblr

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Regardless, there's some nice stuff there mate. "Static in my head" stood out in particular. Your sig link is off though - found the right one from your tumblr

 

Cheers! I'll let you know when I manage to get some new stuff up. Fixed my sig as well, thanks for pointing it out.

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Guest petesasqwax

Definitely do that man - I want to hear more and I'm particularly interested in what you're doing with Live 9 & Max for Live if you're ever up for explaining further

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I've never used Max before getting it with Live so mostly I just stare at it!
Something I am experimenting with at the moment is the Buffer Shuffler 2. I've got a instrument rack with 3 chains, each has a EQ so the audio is split into low, medium and high frequencies. Then each chain has it's own Shuffler with different settings. Then I try feeding different loops into it and see what comes out. It creates some really interesting rhythms and textures, especially when I send it into the reverb I made using Live's standard reverb and the new convolution reverb.

 

Have you seen the YouTube Videos Cycling '74 put up for the monosequencer? It's a deep device once you see what it can really do, especially with adding variation and stuff.

 

Once I get some time I'm going to start exploring what Max can really do.

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That Buffer Shuffler sounds interesting. One of the key issues I found as I got more and more into producing was that need to make things a bit more random - less on-rails and computer perfect. Using effects which are a bit unpredictable introduce a more human element, I think. That's what it feels like to me, anyway. I guess that's why I tend to gravitate more towards things which colour the sounds in non-uniform ways

I like the idea of splitting sounds into different frequency bands and effecting each one individually - that's a very clever way of messing with things.

I've not seen the Cycling 74 videos but I should look them up - not just for the monosequencer, but for the whole product, range. The possibilities for that stuff are pretty much endless

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  • 1 month later...

Much as with others, started with a lot of sample based production. Then got more electronic as the MCs I worked with weren't coming from a traditional Hip Hop perspective. I then grew weary of working with MCs (at least as a beat maker) and have put more energy into producing artists with a broader musical perspective.

 

 

However, has since found myself reaching for samples again as I just like that sonic. I'm also using a lot of 'found sounds' that have been recorded with a little hand held portable recorder.

 

I just I'm just looking into ways of making a computer somehow seem more organic. It's a work in progress. The biggest issue is time! I've only produced one track in the last year but I've been working my nuts off engineering and teaching. It's hard to get a vibe when you've been working with music for 12 hours!

 

I'm not too worried though, the music will happen when it's ready. Been focussing more on learning to play piano.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Formula:

 

Have I heard a phat loop that people would find entertaining if I just looped it? Yes: sample it. No: Have I heard a sample that I could re-sample and pass off as my own? Yes: sample it. No: Can I create the sound knocking about in my head by playing an instrument? Yes: play said instrument. No: can I create the sound in my head using synths? Yes: use synths. No: has anybody recorded anything that sounds like the sound I have in my head but it just needs re-pitching? Yes: sample it. No: write it using synths that cost lots of money. Has this formula helped me? Yes: I am doing my best and will crack on. No: go to the pub.

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  • 2 months later...

I started out sampling. Used an Akai S01 with no sequencer or recording software whatsoever. Find a musik loop, find a drum loop hit record on the four track and press the buttons to play the loops, manually sequencing as it recorded. Came up with some gems doing it that way (believe it or not). I did things that way until I got an ASRX. Similar to the MPC. My whole idea of production changed at that point. Never being the type to create what I heard before but more apt to just lay it down how I feel it. I had a machine that I could tap out my own melodies, bass lines, and drums. Sampling was all but out the window. I still did it and still do it to this day (rarely) but I almost always end up recomposing them and mutilating them beyond recognition anyway. Another thing that happens is that i'll spend hours making something based solely off a sampled loop I found and by the end ditch the sample and finish the composition with out it. So in a nutshell i personally don't really bother with sampled loops much anymore. Like someone said earlier in the thread, I'll sample sounds and drum hits to use as I please. I do love me some sampled drums. :8

With all the equipment and software available to use today it's almost pointless unless your really attracted to a song and wanna remake it or if you're shooting for that classic, mid 90's underground hip hop sound. Which can honestly still be achieved without sampling loops. I will confess though! I did sample the theme musik for the movie "IP MAN" and made a beat out of it. Sh** is banging!

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  • 2 months later...
Guest petesasqwax

totally dropped the ball on this one - my apologies!

assemblyworker - what kind of handheld recorder are you using ? I borrowed a friends Zoom H4n and was really impressed but I can't justify the £200+ price tag for that kind of thing right now

i like the idea of making things more organic too. I've been working lately with recording instruments and samples myself to combine those with the music I'm making. also i like the idea of working with more tactile controllers etc. but the ability to really get much organic than that is limited. I used the handheld recorder to capture the sound of a factory near where i live. it gives off this immense drone that sits underneath the general noise of the day, but I didn't get what I wanted from the recordings. maybe i'll give it another go. it definitely has some potential for sitting underneath some tracks and giving everything another element that I couldn't get from anything else. the idea of tying productions into "real world stuff" is definitely one that appeals to me

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Guest petesasqwax

supacuts - I have to be honest mate, I think your formula is restricted by focusing on definites. more "probably" and "possibly, in time" in place of those "No" answers and you're in business! Could interfere with pub time, though

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Guest petesasqwax

orator3 - I'm in the same position. I started out sampling too. had no instruments or musical knowledge so I took little bits of records that I found and tried to combine them into my own things. I got better and better at it and started pitch shifting samples to make my own melodies until I arrived at the point where i didn't sample records any more, just single instrument hits (from sample collections etc). I did that for a long time before I finally realised: surely it would be much easier to just play this stuff or at least use some kind of synth to programme it in using a piano roll editor. largely, that's what i do these days in my own productions. i still sample thing because i love to do that stuff - to see what i can find in a sample and flip it so that it's unrecognisable - but i save that stuff for mixtapes rather than proper tracks.

for all that, though, I've never actually built a track from samples and then added things on until I've taken the sample away altogether. I read of El-P doing that loads and his stuff is among my favourite out there, but it's not something that would come naturally to me at all, I don't know why

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