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Sample? I nearly shat.


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I intend for this thread to be a discussion about sample and beat production techniques, mainly for hipp hopp.

 

I've been messing about with smaple-based production for a while now, and I use the term messing about to mean just that, sampling little things on my Roland SP-303 and creating little beats here and there, nothing serious.

 

My technique, is borrowed from producers like the DustBrothers (Beastie Boys), Prince Paul and Rza, in other words traditional hip hop sampling where a producer might take three or four basic samples to form a song.

 

I find the following easy:

 

finding a sample I like, or finding a smaple which sounds like something a hip hop producer would use

coming up with ideas in my head as to how I might rap over a beat (I know!)

being a bit creative in what I sample, i.e. not just using old soul and jazz and funk records

 

I find the following hard:

 

knowing when a beat has enough content, i.e. if it's to rich, too sparse etc...

combining complicated samples

 

Take a concrete example. Last night I had the intro from 10CC's I'm Mandy, Fly Me on the pad (24s in)

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQdBrR-Kpf0

 

So I think "that sounds cool, now what do I do. Loop it up? That sounds cool enough. I could imagine someone rapping over that. Might need a bit of variation for a chorus. Also it's kinda slow. Tried some FX on it, not liking anything. Keep it natural..."

 

So I start looking around my records for something for a chorus, something slow cos the beat above is about 82bpm I think. I can't find anything immediately but I'm kinda thinking something with high vocals that I can distort? Then I might experiment with film and or TV samples, just some spoken word stuff sprinkled over?

 

What do you guys think would be a good direction to go in here, given the building block of that 10CC beat. I always think it's better to think in practical terms rather than people saying "well I take a snippet of a soul song and chop it up and use a kick, snare and clap to drive it" (and that's not me having a go at you Wax) but I would be curious to see exactly what people might do, and more specifically, how much more sound would you add to that original sample.

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I know man, guilty as sin on that front. I can't believed anyone could use it less that you! (jokes, mach lav).

 

Drop it like it's hot is actually more complicated than you'd think.

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Drop it Like it's Hot works because Pharrell is a genius when it comes to negative space in composition. Composition generally, really. Genius. amirite?

 

To me that beat sounds akin to the Take a Walk on the Wild Side loop that made Can I Kick It, and it's not for me at all, it's too dirgy... but that said, I think if you're vibing off that energy then just consider the context in which that energy fits, and let it come to life almost on its own. It's a 'laid back' kind of sound, so it wants to invoke feelings of relaxation. Maybe, to take Wild Side as inspiration, it wants to play with that ironically by mixing in psychedelic overtones and considering why that laid back feeling exists in the first place...

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mmm. i think my irony was lost there. i kno drop it like its hot is extremely hard to replicate. i was playing on the fact it sounds so simple and yet so good. and that an un-educated person might think, yeh just copy that.

 

#i'll get my coat

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Drop it Like it's Hot works because Pharrell is a genius when it comes to negative space in composition. Composition generally, really. Genius. amirite?

 

To me that beat sounds akin to the Take a Walk on the Wild Side loop that made Can I Kick It, and it's not for me at all, it's too dirgy... but that said, I think if you're vibing off that energy then just consider the context in which that energy fits, and let it come to life almost on its own. It's a 'laid back' kind of sound, so it wants to invoke feelings of relaxation. Maybe, to take Wild Side as inspiration, it wants to play with that ironically by mixing in psychedelic overtones and considering why that laid back feeling exists in the first place...

 

Cheers Chris, I see you're taking the philosophical approach but it's an appreciated comment. I think it sounds like Walk on the Wild Side, Perfect Day and Buffalo Springfield's "For What it's Worth". Might see if there's anything there I can vibe with. I've got Buffalo Springfield's greatest hits somewhere, plus Neil Young's Decade 3xLP set...I love Neil Young.

 

@kimbly: Hashtag jokes? The Twitterati have got their claws into you son! Irony recieved.

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True, sorry if that was vague. I guess from a practical, sound design point of view, there are a few things that you need to consider when making samples fit together: matching harmonics, eq, compression, and reverb. Those are what I'd perhaps call the basic staples of 'source matching', with the possible addition of bit depth and sample rate alteration.

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True, sorry if that was vague. I guess from a practical, sound design point of view, there are a few things that you need to consider when making samples fit together: matching harmonics, eq, compression, and reverb. Those are what I'd perhaps call the basic staples of 'source matching', with the possible addition of bit depth and sample rate alteration.

 

Thanks Chris, can you recommend a good beginners guide? That sounds like something it would help to read up on.

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I'll be honest, I can't think of any one thing I've ever read that has really been instrumental... I'll make a guide myself at some point but in the meantime, I'd say the best place to start would be to really sit with a parametric EQ until you've gotten your head around how *frequencies* rather than *sounds* are accentuated and attenuated, and how harmonics of sounds change when altering frequencies. Experiment with the bandwidth and slope of an EQ point to hear how resonance can be introduced or cut, and so on. I think when that 'clicks' things start to slowly slot in to place - perhaps with compression next on the agenda...

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If it were me i'd pitch it down/slow it down, and chop it up - the stuff from 37 seconds would be more interesting to me to chop up. If going for the open loop at 24 seconds though, the white noise could be really nicely fucked up if overcompression or side chain compression was used. These arent things to get too bothered about right now, but its just examples of how i'd approach it. In terms of layering samples, I can't really offer any advice because as you know thats not my thing.

 

i'll have a fuck about with it if i get chance to show you the sort of thing i'd try and do - thats not to say i could do what i get in my head.

 

Something to consider in terms of the layering of samples etc is that dust brothers et al would have spent bloody ages finding the right samples to layer up, and would have worked with badass engineers who would've assisted with the sound and the skills.

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Thanks fellas, I appreciate the input as always. Kimbly, does your fat FX unit have a parametric EQ on it? I just had a look at what that means and wouldn't mind a nice mess with one.

 

Wax, I thought about compressing the sample (just the bass and drums with the whooshing white noise) but bottled it when the white noise started getting crunchy. I'd be interested to see how you approach it. I've been messing about tonight and hope to have a presentable beat some time soon.

 

I'd like to hear people's input on rapping over beats. Do you always create things with the thought that this is something to be rapped on or do you see them as standalone instros or do you see them as flexible ideas that can be structured either way to meet demand and not as finished pieces per se?

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Guest Symatic

i used to havee a sp-404 and went on sp-forums for a few beat battles. that taught me a fair bit (not that im much good at making beats!) but we could try the same thing. someone choose a sample or 2, everyone go and fuck with it for a week or so, then we can all show and tell.

 

this 10cc sample is pretty interesting, it would be interesting to see different approaches to either getting rid of the white noise or using it creatively.

 

i wish i still had my 404 but i do have a laptop which can do all that stuff...

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That image hasn't posted properly kimblo. What's the model, I'll look it up mesen.

 

@Sy: that's not a bad shout. I also have a DAW I can use which is technically more powerful but obviously lacks the immediacy of using a pad sampler.

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Last night I went browsing for some good EQing guides and came across this:

 

EQ

 

Compression

 

they are DnB focussed but are quite well regarded it seems. I couldn't possibly comment.

 

One thing I don't get. According to this your "upper ceiling" is always 0dB so if you have a peak in a waveform the peak is always 0dB and the rest gets pushed down BUT it also says that if you increase the volume of that waveform the peak will extend past 0dB and cause distortion. How can both those statements be true?

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I don't think that sentence necessarily explains it well.

 

Try this:

 

http://en.wikipedia....ing_%28audio%29

 

That might be a bit too in depth...its something i could probably just about explain if i had a pad and pen and was sat with you, but it'd be difficult to explain otherwise. It relates to harmonics - you should check out the difference in sound between a sine wave and a square wave too, that might help with understanding. Might.

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QUESTION! (two questions)

 

1. I have actually directly asked this before but it didn't really get answered properly buuuuuuuut if you sample a "block of sound" as Chris called it in a recent thread, how would you go about EQing it. I'm going to use another example from Paul's boutique to illustrate this.

 

The song "Hey Ladies" samples largely, for its main groove, Machine Gun by the Commadores. If you compare here they've slowed this sample down and maybe done other stuff with it because they add some more drum sounds on top, specifically that snap. What might they do to the Comodores smaple in terms of EQ and compression there do you think and what drum sounds might they have added AND do they EQ the Commodores sample to accomodate those drums. Is this where sidechaining comes in?

 

2. Another concrete example and this is just fishing around for opinions. Chubb Rock's "Just the two of us" samples King Albert's "Cold Feet. As far as I can tell this is pretty much the only sample in the tune. Now there's occasions where I've looped up a similar thing and thought "that's basically it". Where do you find the confidence to call it a day after looping up one sample for a track. Am I being overly simplistic in my analysis of the creation of that track?

 

I'm curious to hear from the DV production crew.

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It isn't sampling 15 seconds on the Albert King IMO. It sounds more like an interpolation to me. Could be wrong though.

 

Again Dopp, i feel like you're trying to make something as subjective as beatmaking into a formula. The thing is there's no right answer, and you've just got to trust your ears. Theres certain guides to eqing, say like about 2-4khz boost (i think) on a snare will generally make it a bit more snappy for example, but no one can give you a set list of things to do to make your beat sound a certain way.

 

In terms of how much to do to a loop/track, it depends what you're doing. Some emcees can give enough variation and enough of a hook so that the beat doesn't need variation. Some, however, can't. There's no point adding stuff onto a beat for the sake of it just to add variation. For example, for the following beat, i just looped up a 4 bar diana ross thing, and imitated the summer madness synth for the chorus, and that was it:

 

Thats not to say what I did worked or is right, but it sounds right to me.

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imo the best way to learn is trial and error, stop talking about it and just have a play, see what u come up with.

then if ur really stuck maybe go online as a reference but dont take it as gospel.

 

its an artform afterall, if it sounds good, it sounds good, regardless

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Thanks brothers. Are you sure it's an interpolation? Not that I wanna get into that. Do you just mean it was covered by a band in the studio?

 

Also that YT link has been blocked for copyright, FYI :(

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No, I'm not sure. It could be 2 seperate samples as I don't hear a clean bar in the OG. It might be that the drums are layered, cos they all sound punchier and there's deffo extra hi hats. The organ sounds a little clean to me.

 

Basically i'm 99.9% sure its not just a straight sample loop. I reckon its 2 seperate clean sections of the bass and drums, with drums layered on top, not sure if the organ part is a chop or replayed, or both.

 

this is what the vid was. bloody copyright.

 

http://soundcloud.com/djwaxon/02-window-shopper/

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I'm not sure what they've done but the organ is definitely more prominent. One thing's for sure, the bit marked as the sample in that site is not the right sample.

 

It's a tune anyway, as is your remix!

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