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Juggling Set-up


Guest Symatic

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Guest Symatic

since we've got a few of us doing the juggle battles now, and ive been practicing it a lot more for the first time in ages, i thought id ask about setups.

 

I've swapped back to technics from vestax for juggling. despite the better tracking and higher torque on my pdx's, i prefer the feel of the technics for juggles. also the stop time is better for pauses and the motor off is easier to control.

 

i also thought that my vestax were causing more record burn - ive got those spring loaded asts arms that make the weight much heavier overall.

 

also i use ortofon scratch needles/carts. i notice a lot of shure users have their weight set pretty light - if you use shures do you find the records wear out quickly or does it take a long time?

 

i know quality of pressings makes a difference, but i think ortofons might cause a bit more damage than shures, but i dont know for certain.... any thoughts?

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yes, technics >>> all that I've tried for juggling. The higher torque also leads to tougher backspins... 1200s kinda have that sweet spot since it's just enough torque to have reasonable pick up, but not enough to impede backspinning. And the stop time is more natural yea, although there's some stop patterns I can only really do on higher torque... but for most of your everyday patterns the smoother backspin trumps a quicker start up with stop patterns.

 

Shure is really good on record wear, Ortofon not so much. Tbh I used ortofons for 2-3 years and didn't mind them, tried Shures again and threw my Ortofons out. The biggest difference between then is when you're juggling IMO. If you're doing a pattern when you have to backspin super fast, like 2 rotations in the space of a beat or something, that's when the slight differences in traction are put to the test... and Ortofon doesn't pass that test as often from my experience.

 

But yea, Orto are harsher on records generally, all depends on how you're setup, but I think Shure's damage is capped a bit... like if you set them up horribly with tons of weight they won't be near as bad as Orto's with tons of weight. If you have both setup real well they might be comparable. I remember accidentally hitting ortofon's and scratching right across a record leaving a gash that would cause skips... I don't think I've ever done that with Shure's even tho I've slammed them really hard by accident before... I think orto's are just sharper or something.

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Guest Symatic

it looks like you have a fair bit of weight on your shures, vekked. but also you use serato so record wear would be difficult to judge.

 

at one point i had one technics and one vestax and the vestax caused more wear, even after i tried to get the weights the same.

 

i think the shures are a 'blunter' stylus, like more of a U shape than a V shape. the round shape means there is a little less contact with the v-shaped groove, so you only wear out that point of contact. the ortofons touch more of the groove, and the walls of the groove wear out over the wider contact area.

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it looks like you have a fair bit of weight on your shures, vekked. but also you use serato so record wear would be difficult to judge.

 

at one point i had one technics and one vestax and the vestax caused more wear, even after i tried to get the weights the same.

 

i think the shures are a 'blunter' stylus, like more of a U shape than a V shape. the round shape means there is a little less contact with the v-shaped groove, so you only wear out that point of contact. the ortofons touch more of the groove, and the walls of the groove wear out over the wider contact area.

 

I still use vinyl the majority of the time when I'm not making routines, Orto's just seemed to eat records. Yea my weights are shoved in all the way, a lot of ppl put them backwards to add even more weight but I don't. I also max my height... I just find it skips less. But yea for Serato I def set my stuff up different because record wear isn't a consideration. I would rather minimize skipping.

 

Also kinda random but I remember one time I used a really fuzzy record that I cut with a bunch using shures and played it on Ortofons and it sounded nearly brand new... I'm guessing cuz the different point of contact as you mention.

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Also kinda random but I remember one time I used a really fuzzy record that I cut with a bunch using shures and played it on Ortofons and it sounded nearly brand new... I'm guessing cuz the different point of contact as you mention.

 

yeah i had that when i played some funk tunes i had juggled with and worn down a fair bit. i played them with an ortofon kontrapunkt cart, which is mega sharp and they sounded brand new in comparison.

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But yea, Orto are harsher on records generally, all depends on how you're setup, but I think Shure's damage is capped a bit... like if you set them up horribly with tons of weight they won't be near as bad as Orto's with tons of weight. If you have both setup real well they might be comparable. I remember accidentally hitting ortofon's and scratching right across a record leaving a gash that would cause skips... I don't think I've ever done that with Shure's even tho I've slammed them really hard by accident before... I think orto's are just sharper or something.

 

Yes. Ortos suck. Not tried the scratch ones, but after years of using them I switched to Sure and never looked back. I'd try them for free but certainly will never pay for Ortos again.

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Vekked: how come you use 3 stickers on your records? i saw akakabe with the same thing but i'd find it confusing....

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if u max yr height on yr arm set up it will burn yr grooves twice as fast... isnt that wat they call downforce? for best results in maintaining yo grooves is to set it up so the tonearm is parralel to the vinyl surface wen the needle is on the recid

 

i also find concords stick better than shure, but shure hav the better sound quality

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i think the shures are a 'blunter' stylus, like more of a U shape than a V shape. the round shape means there is a little less contact with the v-shaped groove, so you only wear out that point of contact. the ortofons touch more of the groove, and the walls of the groove wear out over the wider contact area.

 

Shure 44-7s have a wider stylus diameter than most other carts (I believe 0.5 rather than 0.3), which is meant to make for a snugger fit in the groove and obviously it then spreads its weight better, wearing less. Ortofon copied this with their Q-Bert signature model - which I use as well as Shures.

 

Overall, I've found that the Ortofon Q-Berts (after a a fairly lengthy wearing in) hold the grooves almost as well as a Shure and I don't find there's much in it when it comes to record wear. I also find the sound quality of these particular Ortofons to be a marked improvment over the Shures... plus I play a lot of 45s and Shures are a bit too keen bounce of the record into the felt and destroy themselves - which is why these are now my main needles. Admittedly, I'm no juggler so i'm only judging them for the mixing, scratching and sampling I use them for... if I was juggling I reckon I'd go for a Shure 44-7/Technics combo, but for my needs the Ortofon Q-Berts have proved the best compromise.

 

I've had a bit of experience with other Ortonfons too and found the other scratch ones to skip and wear more than the Q-Berts.

 

It's also worth remembering that the turntablist specific and basic Ortofons, and Shure 44-7s all have spherical styli which is better for wear/skipping but not sound quality... the high end/high audio quality styli like the Nightclubs have eliptical styli and wear the records like crazy and skip like little bitches.

 

The only other gripe I have with Shures is poor manufacturing tolerances - most I've had have been pretty good and fairly consistent, but I had two at different times that never stiffened up and just wobbled and skipped until I binned them. To balance that out though I've had one or two that just seemed to be invincible.

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Vekked: how come you use 3 stickers on your records? i saw akakabe with the same thing but i'd find it confusing....

 

Basically hip-hop is ~90-100 BPM. If you mark your record every 1/3 rotation (3 marks) 100 BPM will hit every sticker (although if you're using colours they will alternate which beat of the bar they hit). Even if it's a bit fast or slower like 90-110 BPM the markers will still be relevant for a rotation or 2. Obviously if it's much faster or slower than that then only the first sticker will hit on beat. But yea short answer is because most of the beats I juggle are ~100 BPM or hip-hop speed so more often than not those 3 stickers will be useful. If you were often juggling ~65 BPM, or ~130 BPM then it would be more helpful to mark your records in quarters, so 4 marks per rotation. I suppose there's certain BPMs where 5 marks could conceivably be relevant/helpful... might have to experiment with that.

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Guest broke

I also prefer Technics for juggling, mainly because all my cue points are for s-arm turntables. And try as I might, I can't get the start/stop button on the PDX to behave like the one on the 1200.

 

I think if you're going to juggle real records you have to be prepared for record wear / cue burn etc. It's going to happen regardless of what you use. If I find a record that I know I'll be using a lot, I'll buy four copies.

 

Also, I would advise against using more than one sticker. Working with one single cue point is simpler and will give you a greater understanding of how the record travels in relation to the tempo of the track.

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I think if you're going to juggle real records you have to be prepared for record wear / cue burn etc. It's going to happen regardless of what you use. If I find a record that I know I'll be using a lot, I'll buy four copies.

 

Pretty much this. I've gotten even more than 4 copies if there's only 1 part of the track you can use.

 

Also, I would advise against using more than one sticker. Working with one single cue point is simpler and will give you a greater understanding of how the record travels in relation to the tempo of the track.

 

You'd use more than 1 sticker if you used more than 1 beat tbh.

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Guest broke

I think if you're going to juggle real records you have to be prepared for record wear / cue burn etc. It's going to happen regardless of what you use. If I find a record that I know I'll be using a lot, I'll buy four copies.

 

Pretty much this. I've gotten even more than 4 copies if there's only 1 part of the track you can use.

 

Also, I would advise against using more than one sticker. Working with one single cue point is simpler and will give you a greater understanding of how the record travels in relation to the tempo of the track.

 

You'd use more than 1 sticker if you used more than 1 beat tbh.

 

Not me.

 

As an example, some of the Ultimate Breaks and Beats records I use have more than one juggle per side and I use a single mark on the label for all of them. If I have another sticker on the vinyl for quick cueing, I'll black it out with a marker so it's not visible.

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As an example, some of the Ultimate Breaks and Beats records I use have more than one juggle per side and I use a single mark on the label for all of them. If I have another sticker on the vinyl for quick cueing, I'll black it out with a marker so it's not visible.

 

I meant more than 1 beat like more than the first beat of the bar, was supposed to be a diss but oh well.

 

On the real tho I disagree with advising against using 1 cue point. Using 1 stickers are you not just looking for it at different spots on the record (3 o'clock, 6 o'clock, etc)? The only difference there is that with 3 stickers you're always looking at the same reference point (12 o'clock or the stylus) but looking for a different coloured sticker.

 

I know what you mean about developing a feel for the hits relative to the tempo, but I developed that from just practicing and using different tempos... I've been rocking 3 stickers from pretty much the beginning.

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Guest broke

You're saying I always juggle from the one? I'm pretty sure I don't.

 

IMMSMC, the three-sticker technique was popular with Japanese DJs in the DMCs.

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Guest Symatic

i prefer one sticker as well though. i find multiple stickers confusing. even using circular stickers instead of straight ones throws me off - ocd?

i've just bought a third and fourth copy of one of my records - i thought i was mad but at least some other people are doing it...

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yea 1 sticker is completely fine for most stuff, when you're doing more advanced chase patterns it helps to have multiple stickers... like I don't think I could do my dmc online juggle with 1 sticker for instance, cuz I stop it at so many random parts I can't really memorize it, so I just look for where the drums hits on the first side then I know where to find it for the 2nd side. Also my eyes don't have to chase 1 cue mark because there's always going to be another one, I just use whichever is nearest the stylus.

 

Nearly any juggle pattern where you're backspinning (unless you're doing a really long pattern that goes across multiple bars) will not have enough different spots you're going to be using in the pattern to warrant a need for more stickers.

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also i use ortofon scratch needles/carts. i notice a lot of shure users have their weight set pretty light - if you use shures do you find the records wear out quickly or does it take a long time?

 

Without going into a physics lecture IMO Shure's are louder and skinless mainly because the the "spring" is softer so they move more within the magnetic field but that movement isn't enough to pull the tonearm side to side enough to make it skip i.e. the needle moves more and the tonearm less.

 

Don't use concords with a s shaped tonearm and angle the needle outwards to fake a straight arm. If you want to see the effect angling has on skipping, put your needle cover on, but the covered needle on the record and start scratching. With the needle at the "proper" angle then you'll see it swing in and out as you move the record, the more you angle it out the less it will swing.

 

Now, if you put more weight on the swaying gets worse, which tells you you need a softer needle that you can put less weight on and you should angle it outwards.

 

Give it a go and it should make sense

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