Mutis Mayfield Posted October 19, 2016 Share Posted October 19, 2016 I re-found this link and I want share it with the comunity to know opinions. http://www.theage.com.au/news/music/bmusicb-turntable-abuse-was-art-before-it-was-music/2007/11/15/1194766846518.html If the forum doesn't marches with the topic please admins move it inside the right one 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arkei Posted October 19, 2016 Share Posted October 19, 2016 Nice. But from that point a view John Cage could be the first too... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mutis Mayfield Posted October 19, 2016 Author Share Posted October 19, 2016 Yes sure but a paper is a paper. We should dig to find Cage's (or musique concrete too maybe) to find "references" and trace the innovators instead repeat etnocentric mantrams such "scratching was invented by..." If we want to be taken seriously as "musicians" (or developers) we should be formally rigorous with all the prior art in our "abstracts and sources".For example DVS concept could survived in the "N2it lawsuit" (troll patent) thanks to one of "these" papers and part of the blame for NI leaving focus on "scratch" is due they (NI) should fee 50$/license for every future and past license supporting mk1 vinyl (and related technology). http://www.skratchworx.com/newspage.php?fn_mode=comments&fn_id=1218http://cdm.link/2008/04/ni-ends-legal-dispute-over-traktor-scratch-digital-vinyls-twisty-turny-history/http://djtechtools.com/2009/11/29/n2its-lawsuit-against-m-audio-dismissed/ Who invented telephone? Bell will be the answer taught at schools...https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/jun/17/humanities.internationaleducationnews It isn't trivial Arkei. Creators deserve credit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arkei Posted October 19, 2016 Share Posted October 19, 2016 Yes sure but a paper is a paper. We should dig to find Cage's (or musique concrete too maybe) to find "references" and trace the innovators instead repeat etnocentric mantrams such "scratching was invented by..." If we want to be taken seriously as "musicians" (or developers) we should be formally rigorous with all the prior art in our "abstracts and sources". For example DVS concept could survived in the "N2it lawsuit" (troll patent) thanks to one of "these" papers and part of the blame for NI leaving focus on "scratch" is due they (NI) should fee 50$/license for every future and past license supporting mk1 vinyl (and related technology). http://www.skratchworx.com/newspage.php?fn_mode=comments&fn_id=1218 http://cdm.link/2008/04/ni-ends-legal-dispute-over-traktor-scratch-digital-vinyls-twisty-turny-history/ http://djtechtools.com/2009/11/29/n2its-lawsuit-against-m-audio-dismissed/ Who invented telephone? Bell will be the answer taught at schools... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/jun/17/humanities.internationaleducationnews It isn't trivial Arkei. Creators deserve credit. Yeah sure they deserve credit (you seem to be very serious about this...so sorry if I was coming of as trivial with my comment). I would have love to see such events happening myself, instead of just reading about them, that would have been the bomb (I saw André Ricklis version of DVS...the one RZA claimed to have invented...way before DVS was the cult it is nowadays). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vekked Posted October 19, 2016 Share Posted October 19, 2016 Yes sure but a paper is a paper. We should dig to find Cage's (or musique concrete too maybe) to find "references" and trace the innovators instead repeat etnocentric mantrams such "scratching was invented by..." If we want to be taken seriously as "musicians" (or developers) we should be formally rigorous with all the prior art in our "abstracts and sources". I've done a fair bit of digging into it myself and ended up reaffirming that scratching was invented by Grand Wizard Theodore. If you want to reach, William S. Burroughs recorded manually moving a tape of his voice back and forth in like the 50s or something so it was baby scratching of sorts, kind of, but not on turntables. The super relevant historical thing that most skeptics overlook when saying "somebody HAD to have scratched before GWT" is that most needles at the time were Elliptical because they sound better, and they couldn't play the record backwards, so even if someone had the idea, they couldn't do it. Spherical needles came about for radio DJs who needed to have tracks cued up right after advertisements so being able to pull the record back was an asset. However they were generally cheaper/shittier needles so anyone buying needles to listen would still get elliptical ones, unless they didn't have the money. However a lot of poor up and coming DJs would get them cuz that's all they could afford/get their hands on. So it kinda makes sense why it took so long with turntables being around before scratching was "invented". Aside from that, even if somebody else pull a record back and recorded it before GWT, they didn't invent scratching anymore than the first person to pluck a stretched string invented guitar, or the first person to put coloured liquid on paper invented painting. The actual art and the concept of developing it into a way of playing music like we do today can be traced directly back to him. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jam Burglar Posted October 19, 2016 Share Posted October 19, 2016 In order to be the "godfather" of something I think you need to have influence. Christian Marclay didn't have influence in hip hop. Also, that mufucka can't scratch. Post a god damned file bitch! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deft Posted October 19, 2016 Share Posted October 19, 2016 You can scratch with elliptical styli I am sure. Probably not recommended but I can't see why it wouldn't work. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexinoodle Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 Is it really important ?The two most important inventions of all time have no inventor, so why should we even give a shit who invented scratching. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djdiggla Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 I re-found this link and I want share it with the comunity to know opinions. http://www.theage.com.au/news/music/bmusicb-turntable-abuse-was-art-before-it-was-music/2007/11/15/1194766846518.html If the forum doesn't marches with the topic please admins move it inside the right one Very interesting. There was this guy I read about and saw some videos on some 10+ years ago... Basically the guy appeared to be the first person making "turntable music". Not necessarily scratching (but some) and definitely different than haw we envision turntablism but also had some similarities to stuff the Perverts were doing in the late 90s early 00s or what Core Fighters (?) from Japan were doing around the same time. Have tried to find the article or guy's name recently without any luck.. wondering if this was him. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mutis Mayfield Posted October 22, 2016 Author Share Posted October 22, 2016 Ok it's not only about "autoring" (ideas float on oonosphere so they can drop on different individuals at same time) it's more related to being a bit rogorous with sources. Turntablism is young compared with musique concrete and musique concrete is young compared to first analog electrified music so and so... but tracing the papers giving credit to each individual contribution we keep history less etnocentric. I can be sure about this affirmation but some "concretisques" were in touch with Lee Scratch Perry and these dot makes lot of sense in dub early remixing techniques. Why I ended in this conclusion? Digging like the crates but with wiki and names of the Loop Tape Club and dates. So everything is a "influence" and sometimes looking the most shinning influencer we lost the path to light itself (and stablish dogmas over rulerbreakers contribution) losing the initial living momentum without "rules". I'm agree it's not so important as oneself has madurity to have own criteria but I care about transmission and "history". GWT is history but not all the or the only one or gospel truth. It's like saying Qbert invented scratch only because it's the most famous influencer... or only Qbert could explain truth about it... Qbert done a great contribution (let's hope more on future of course) but ad hominem falacy isn't serious if you want to trace history or events searching for true innovators or trying to trace events for studies, books or whatever form take "our POV about who did what". As I state before it has important when lawsuits and patents attempt to the tools of the trade for example. You can convince a judge with "influence" in these terms. @Arkei Don't worry mate, we usually bump in comments but our visions are near than it could seem. I respect your opinion and other forum members and learn from them discussing like this. I found all the work and contributions at dv very useful Also, that mufucka can't scratch. Post a god damned file bitch!And arguments like this stole me a laugh. Not joking Jam... You are my new hero. Too much fresh biatch! Thanks for sharing your thoughts mates. <3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jam Burglar Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 I definitely think stuff like this is cool. I hate the fact that they try to make more out of it than it really is though. I get that the article's author is trying to get exposure for their article but "HIP-HOP kids may not want to hear it, but the godfather of turntablism is a 52-year-old white guy" just smacks of white people trying to get undue credit for hip hop. They can give Marclay the credit he's due without trying to discredit others. Nahmsayng? But hey I'm 100% on board with you Mutis! Let's not overlook this type of thing. To Q-Bert's credit, I remember back in the 90s when people were giving him credit for being to first to use a wah wah pedal and I challenging him on it, saying people had been using pedals at least since the early 80s, and he couldn't be the first. Q agreed and said DST was using all sorts of crazy pedals and whatnot. Knights of the Turntable were doing "turntablsim" back in the 80s. Jam Master Jay was doing scratch drumming. The elements were there. I love getting into the real history of all this stuff without the politics getting in the way. You have to watch people though because they're always pushing an agenda and will distort the truth to support their friends/discredit their enemies. Ok it's not only about "autoring" (ideas float on oonosphere so they can drop on different individuals at same time) it's more related to being a bit rogorous with sources. Turntablism is young compared with musique concrete and musique concrete is young compared to first analog electrified music so and so... but tracing the papers giving credit to each individual contribution we keep history less etnocentric. I can be sure about this affirmation but some "concretisques" were in touch with Lee Scratch Perry and these dot makes lot of sense in dub early remixing techniques. Why I ended in this conclusion? Digging like the crates but with wiki and names of the Loop Tape Club and dates. So everything is a "influence" and sometimes looking the most shinning influencer we lost the path to light itself (and stablish dogmas over rulerbreakers contribution) losing the initial living momentum without "rules".I'm agree it's not so important as oneself has madurity to have own criteria but I care about transmission and "history". GWT is history but not all the or the only one or gospel truth. It's like saying Qbert invented scratch only because it's the most famous influencer... or only Qbert could explain truth about it... Qbert done a great contribution (let's hope more on future of course) but ad hominem falacy isn't serious if you want to trace history or events searching for true innovators or trying to trace events for studies, books or whatever form take "our POV about who did what".As I state before it has important when lawsuits and patents attempt to the tools of the trade for example. You can convince a judge with "influence" in these terms.@Arkei Don't worry mate, we usually bump in comments but our visions are near than it could seem. I respect your opinion and other forum members and learn from them discussing like this. I found all the work and contributions at dv very useful Also, that mufucka can't scratch. Post a god damned file bitch!And arguments like this stole me a laugh. Not joking Jam... You are my new hero. Too much fresh biatch! Thanks for sharing your thoughts mates. <3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mutis Mayfield Posted October 22, 2016 Author Share Posted October 22, 2016 Yeah 100% agreed. Etnocentricity is bad as misscredit. That's the point for searching all then contributions and build a criteria. History is difficult by itself with documentation, without it becomes a nightmare. People repeating things like mantrams and false attributions which dare all the community. I'm ok to GWT as a founder of scratching base but for master the technique (like some of you pointed) instead for be the first of not. I also miss more Jamaican knowledge in the early days. Most of the times when people talks about HipHop beggining they start on Kool Herc but he arrived to his new home with a background so when I share thought with others I try to explain this continuum and multilayer (multiple events at multiple places) I believe that Culture will benefit of "roots and rarities" study. It could bring discarded ideas a second chance.For example I read somewhere about fretless discussion, back in the days, about the possibility of using pitchshifting pedals instead cv midi but I didn't see nobody pursuing this route anywhere... it will be more flexible than cv midi and less intrussive with gear. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexinoodle Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 To be fair, i have been into hiphop for over 30 years now, when we talk about the beginning here, we are talking about chain gangs, so may be it is a young person thing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mutis Mayfield Posted October 23, 2016 Author Share Posted October 23, 2016 I had been since 1997 to 2004 actively (and hearing music often due a radioshow I done) and lately more focused on live looping stuff and reggae dub culture. I check every documentary I found, some of them talked about the insurance pays and flame building, gangs and so... but I recommend heavily Dub Echoes to see some roots of dubbin in addition to musique concrete and so. I'm a wikirat librarian xB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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