Guest Symatic Posted January 6, 2016 Share Posted January 6, 2016 If they were really going for the audiophile market, they would have/should have changed that arm. As some of the aftermarket conversions have proved, a 1200 can be an audiophile deck but the arm is a well known weak link. I don't think you'll get the whole "straight is better" answer from audiophiles as much these days. Consensus almost seems to be that it doesn't matter all that much. Plus, a true overhung, audiophile, straight tonearm is also not going to be as good for scratching as the S shaped arm. Scratch tables tend to use underhung straight tonearms but those things are not built for sound quality and they eat your records so much faster. Now, I don't do hardly any juggling, but as far as cutting goes I'll take the S arm any day. I feel like a 1200 tracks better than a Vestax, doesn't eat your records anywhere near as fast, and sounds better. They're in the sweet spot for me. technics sounds waaaaay better than a vestax straight arm, i've had the 2 side by side for a while now. the angle a straight vestax arm gets to towards the middle of the record is just crazy! as for the "technics arms are shit" argument, it's not that clear cut, as explained here: https://www.kabusa.com/myth12.htm I have replaced technics arms before, with rega ones, it sounds different and i'd probably say better but those particular arms come with their own problems, mostly a hum they pick up which would suck on a big system. the big mod KAB recommends is power supplies for technics, that makes the most difference in one mod apparently but i havent tried it. the motor in the new deck does look nice. I wonder if they followed on from the SP-02 motor technics made, which is similar to the 1200 but i think has more poles for extra accuracy. it's what lots of Neumann lathes use for cutting Master Laquer Dubplates. Beautiful thing Mr Scruff has external power supplies and rega arms for his modded Vestax 2300's, i wonder if it would be worth doing a similar thing for the C1 seeing as its a proper musical instrument and all. seems crazy to have all that engineering and then stick a noisy vestax PSU in and put a short arm with springs in it on top! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jam Burglar Posted January 6, 2016 Share Posted January 6, 2016 Jam Burglar - I have no great specific knowledge of hifi decks but every bit of info ive read on those independent hifi conversions of 1200s slates the original arm and replaces it with a more modern straight arm. Also, any serious hifi decks I've seen in at least the last couple of decades at least have straight arms... maybe that's because I don't move in the right circles though? As for the DJ kind of straight tonearm, maybe it comes down to the individual moments of each specific DJ? With about 3-4grams and a nicely bedded in Shure on my PDX or Stanton I can't get them to skip even if it try, on my 1200s I'd need double that weight and still they'd skip more. For me, the difference is night and day but for you and many other people I've encountered they either aren't bothered or prefer S arms. I'm not a guru but you can go to the audiophile forums and find them endlessly debating issues such as this. People seem to agree that length is key, and that while most high end hi-fi tables use straight arms, there are also very well respected J and S shaped arms that hold their own with the best straight arms. To get good tracking though, all these DJ tables use short, straight tonearms. This helps tracking (prevents skipping) but noticeably reduces sound quality and burns up your records much faster. The longer 9"-12" straight arms you see on high-fi decks would skip all over the place if you tried to scratch with them. So the "S" shape works out as a good compromise. A big reason behind the "S" shape is to give more length, to increase sound quality. I've never really had much of problem with skipping ever, except with records that are not right, and sometimes with juggling. I've also never had a problem with torque, or fader-cut in (as long as it's reasonably sharp). I always felt like the skipping, torque and cut-in wars was a newb thing. Like back in the 90s that shit mattered because people were cutting on belt-drive Gemini tables and using ATUS mixers with long-throw faders, any needle they could find etc. So yeah, in that case you need some torque (like a 1200 already had). New jacks would get in the game, hear that talk about torque and cut-in, and be like "I need the most torque, a straight tonearm, and super-sharp cut-in." By the time Vestax and Stanton were making good decks and people were using DJ mixers (Rane, Vestax, Stanton, etc.) all that added torque and whatnot was just a talking point to try to sell new DJs gear. Numark would be like "we've got the most torque!" and people would buy their shit thinking it was better than a 1200. Anyway, I think a long, audiophile style straight tonearm actually would cause more skipping. If they were really going for the audiophile market, they would have/should have changed that arm. As some of the aftermarket conversions have proved, a 1200 can be an audiophile deck but the arm is a well known weak link. I don't think you'll get the whole "straight is better" answer from audiophiles as much these days. Consensus almost seems to be that it doesn't matter all that much. Plus, a true overhung, audiophile, straight tonearm is also not going to be as good for scratching as the S shaped arm. Scratch tables tend to use underhung straight tonearms but those things are not built for sound quality and they eat your records so much faster. Now, I don't do hardly any juggling, but as far as cutting goes I'll take the S arm any day. I feel like a 1200 tracks better than a Vestax, doesn't eat your records anywhere near as fast, and sounds better. They're in the sweet spot for me. technics sounds waaaaay better than a vestax straight arm, i've had the 2 side by side for a while now. the angle a straight vestax arm gets to towards the middle of the record is just crazy! as for the "technics arms are shit" argument, it's not that clear cut, as explained here: https://www.kabusa.com/myth12.htm I have replaced technics arms before, with rega ones, it sounds different and i'd probably say better but those particular arms come with their own problems, mostly a hum they pick up which would suck on a big system. the big mod KAB recommends is power supplies for technics, that makes the most difference in one mod apparently but i havent tried it. the motor in the new deck does look nice. I wonder if they followed on from the SP-02 motor technics made, which is similar to the 1200 but i think has more poles for extra accuracy. it's what lots of Neumann lathes use for cutting Master Laquer Dubplates. Beautiful thing Mr Scruff has external power supplies and rega arms for his modded Vestax 2300's, i wonder if it would be worth doing a similar thing for the C1 seeing as its a proper musical instrument and all. seems crazy to have all that engineering and then stick a noisy vestax PSU in and put a short arm with springs in it on top! That's a good point. Power supplies seem to be noise sources on my arcade games too. My older Rane mixers always have external supplies. My Controller 1 is noisy as hell compared to a 1200 and I suspect most of it is just that power supply humming away. Even with the needle off the record you can hear the hum in the headphones and it get's pretty loud if you up the gain. I'd put an S-arm on that bitch too if I wasn't so worried about irreparably fucking it up. The tone arm that's on there sounds dead compared to a 1200. I know the Ruck was billing it as sounding way better but that's not my experience with it. It's just got bad-ass notes built in (which is when your really DO need the extra torque). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rasteri Posted January 6, 2016 Share Posted January 6, 2016 Replacing the power supply on a technics is only going to remove interference, not change the actual sound of the audio. A lot of audiophiles claim they can hear a lot more than they can - lots of audiophile forums have banned blind testing, which proves that their claims are bullshit. I would not lump KAB in this category though, dude knows his shit. For DJs, cartridges and phono preamps are the biggest factors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rasteri Posted January 6, 2016 Share Posted January 6, 2016 Also, most "straight" arms as used by audiophiles are actually offset OVERHUNG arms, which makes them identical (geometrically speaking) to technics arms. Vestax straight arms are UNDERHUNG with no offset, which gives them shitty sound but awesome tracking. Take a look at page 765 of this book for a more in-depth guide - http://www.tubebooks.org/Books/RDH4.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Symatic Posted January 6, 2016 Share Posted January 6, 2016 A lot of audiophiles claim they can hear a lot more than they can - lots of audiophile forums have banned blind testing, which proves that their claims are bullshit. i can't possibly think what you mean by that look at this brilliant piece of technology! http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina31.htm 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djdiggla Posted January 6, 2016 Share Posted January 6, 2016 A lot of audiophiles claim they can hear a lot more than they can - lots of audiophile forums have banned blind testing, which proves that their claims are bullshit. i can't possibly think what you mean by that look at this brilliant piece of technology! http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina31.htm Bought Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ Rock Well Posted January 6, 2016 Share Posted January 6, 2016 Interesting stuff fellas! I'm well aware of the poor sound of PDXs - both from the short "underhung" tone arms and some degree of hum they always seem to emit. I keep my 1200s for sampling and spinning real records and PDXs for scratching and they odd bit of DVS use they get along the way. JB - I totally agree on turntable features like more torque being all about a sales smokescreen than an actual need. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kebzer Posted January 6, 2016 Share Posted January 6, 2016 Doesn't anyone noticed that this brick for a turntable is going to be an extra 6 kg heavier than the original? Godamnit, that would be a t total close to 18kgs per piece! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
savwar Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 I'll admit that they're nice, but obviously they're missing the a decent scratchy pitch range and the headshell should be sexier Although you can probably customize a perfectly good second hand pair for way cheaper... When I'm a grown up and i have money I'd probably just do that. these aren't my favorite but they're alright. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djdiggla Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 ^^That's dope. Where u find that and do they do TTX skins? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
savwar Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 http://jessedeancustoms.com/gallery/ He does mpcs and other stuff... and he's not the only one. this is nice... except for the pirate shit. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deft Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 Giz reckons £3000 each for these. Shall we have a whip-round? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trevor dane Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 anyone know when these will go for sale? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djdiggla Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 Giz reckons £3000 each for these. Shall we have a whip-round? What about the regular version? Thought I read there was two versions coming out--the [glow] LIMITED EDITION [/glow] GAE and the G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Posted January 7, 2016 Share Posted January 7, 2016 they're both going to be $4k each, special edition and regular. I'm sold. http://djworx.com/technics-update-ces-confirmed-price-ouch/?utm_campaign=coschedule&utm_source=facebook_page&utm_medium=DJWORX&utm_content=Technics+update+from+CES+-+confirmed+price.+Ouch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rasteri Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 There are torque and break adjustments under the platter, and a USB port for service purposes. Hmm, I wonder if you could hack the firmware to give +-50%. Actually who cares, nobody's gonna buy these things anyway. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acts_One Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 $8K on turntables to throw on some M447s and use Serato. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deft Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 I'm happy to piss money away but I'm struggling to see the step change in materials or engineering that justifies the price tag. I know there is always bonus mark up (charge what the market will bear) but it does feel a bit extortionate. It's hardly a one off boutique product. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ Rock Well Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 There are torque and break adjustments under the platter, and a USB port for service purposes. Hmm, I wonder if you could hack the firmware to give +-50%. Actually who cares, nobody's gonna buy these things anyway.So true! There's still a few people out there bitching about certain features when what they should really be saying is "$4000 EACH!!!!" I see from the djworx article that the regular production versions will still be this price too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ Rock Well Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 Although the non-limited version will basically be the same apart from a different name/model designation - SL-1200GHEY 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 i'm typing this without checking cos im at work, but surely for $4000 you can get a better audiophile turntable anyway? why would someone chose this over another audiophile TT? and it also doesnt make any sense from a DJ point of view, so i'm not sure whats the point of this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jam Burglar Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 i'm typing this without checking cos im at work, but surely for $4000 you can get a better audiophile turntable anyway? why would someone chose this over another audiophile TT? and it also doesnt make any sense from a DJ point of view, so i'm not sure whats the point of this. First, let me say $4000 seems crazy to me. I was thinking $2000 is would be crazy, so it's like double crazy. What I would want this deck for is sampling and recording. You can buy an audiophile deck that will sound better but it's not going to have the same pitch capability and scratch stability. If I was making my living off hip hop albums I could probably justify plunking down on something like this to improve the sound quality of my recordings. If I was DJ Shadow or some shit I would probably buy these joints. P.S. I am actually DJ Shadow. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ Rock Well Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 I bet if the FBI have let him go by the time they drop, that little Pharma-douche guy that bought the Wu album will grab a pair. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djdiggla Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 So true! There's still a few people out there bitching about certain features when what they should really be saying is "$4000 EACH!!!!" Although the non-limited version will basically be the same apart from a different name/model designation - SL-1200GHEY Fellas, fellas, $4k is a small price to pay for possibly the greatest DJ meme in history. The 1200GHEY. It's epic. I would have preordered but I'm holding out for the Stanton version--the Str8GHEY. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike-L Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 I was thinking $2000 is would be crazy, so it's like double crazy. I think the term you're looking for is 'cray cray'. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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