Midi Controllers: The death of scratching, a gateway drug, or neither?

[Vekked]

I've been thinking a lot about equipment and the future with regards to turntablist stuff. Lately I've had a lot of conflicting feelings as a result of frequenting current DJ sites, seeing videos, and trying some.

 

My first instinct when someone asks about scratching on their VCI or whatever is usually "get turntables or don't scratch". There's no question that turntables are still far superior for scratching, but controllers are getting to the point where you can at least scratch somewhat competently... one of the more recent examples I've seen is Colossus and Mana cutting on Mana's VCI:

 

 

Obviously their cuts are better on vinyl, but between this video, and a couple of the demo videos with D-Styles, Zo, etc, it's obvious you can scratch to a certain degree. I've also noticed that there's still interest in scratching, and people want to see scratching on controllers because that's what they own. There are tons of videos of people scratching average or worse on midi controllers that have more youtube videos than probably any scratch video done by a DVer (fuck our lives).

 

I've always found the question "what equipment should I get so I can scratch?" super hard to answer for a complete beginner cuz whether it's logical or not, a lot of people would rather buy new in a store than fuck with ebay or kijiji for used stuff, yet for new turntables/mixers even after all these years they still haven't got any cheaper really (only exception is that DJ tech tools mixer but it's not widely available/or tried and true yet). It still costs well over $1000 to get anything remotely decent as far as turntables and a mixer, and nowadays you have to throw in Serato or Traktor on top. It's super rare that people actually start on decks unless they're a bit older, cuz what kid actually had like $1500 to drop on a hobby they're mildly interested in?

 

So 2 months ago my stance was basically...

 

If you want to scratch, you need to use turntables, or you might as well not start. Midi controllers will be the death of scratching cuz companies are stopping turntable production and when they stop making turntables scratching will die a slow death.

 

Now I'm kind of thinking maybe it's a good idea to push people to start on midi controllers, because if they actually take enough interest in it all of their idols will be scratching on turntables/mixer, and they'll eventually go that route anyways. The people who aren't actually interested will stay on their shitty controllers. I think right now the general consensus is that controllers and people who use them should die a harsh death. Which I don't necessarily think is wrong, but thinking back, before I ever had turntables I was using Ejay with a mouse, and then a shitty USB turntable thing, basically the first midi controller, called a DM2 (http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/2766/04052010723.jpg)... so I started with just about the queerest possible setup, and one of the worst ways to get into DJing or scratching that no one would ever recommend, but fast forward 10 years... [readthejacket.jpg]

 

So I'm kind of thinking that midi controllers could indirectly be a gateway drug for scratching. Even though a smaller % of DJs want to learn how to scratch these days, looking at the videos of people scratching on controllers and how many views they get, it's still an interest. Even if scratching is 10% as popular as it was, there's 10x the amount of potential DJs or more nowadays. Could be a good thing. Thoughts?

[Jimmy]

tried quoting, too fiddly.

 

essentially i agree with the last paragraph and most things you say. altho i dont think it applies to just scratching. like you say, to get someone set up on 2 turntables (or a model of cdj) plus a mixer, plus amp/speakers, then probly serato etc aint cheap in the slightest. and if someone is unsure about how they feel its a big ask/stupid to drop cash on that stuff.

 

whereas if they get a controller (hella ghey as it might be) for basic cuts or to learn what djing/mixing actually involves then later on, if they find they really are interested, they can branch out after.

 

i've been thinking about something similar recently. i like to think if someone ends up loving djing (as in the art form) and has a passion for it, they wont want to stick with a controller. they should want new challenges and hopefully that'd involve not relying on a laptop to play or mix tunes and so would move on to cdjs/turntables. obviously the hardest point technically is pure vinyl mixing/cutting so thats what people who value the craft should aim that.

(having said that, my vinyl only skill set could really do with polishing up, im gonna make it a priority to get a bigger desk so i can hook at least one 1210 up again)

 

slight edit: maybe im deluded and new djs are happy with controllers.

like if someone says 'lets go cut/mix without a screen' it'd be lame/embarrassing if someone couldnt do it.

[d00ban]

DJing is such a pain in the ass nowadays

[doppelkorn]

I have said this before but the appeal of scratching, way back when, seemed to be the ability to manipulate sampled sounds relatively cheaply, using only a turntable and mixer.

 

For about ten years there have been cheaper ways to manipulate sound that are more usable and require less effort to learn, of which midi controllers are one example. I think that's why scratching died/is dying/will die out.

[Steve]

Regarding MIDI controllers, I think it's hard to say either way.

 

I think a big reason for the decline of scratching is the decline of scratching in hip-hop music. That was the "gateway drug" for me - hearing it all the time on hip-hop tracks.

 

It's quite disheartening on sites like DJF to see people regularly saying "the audience don't care about this and that", cos even if that's true (which I don't think it is), you'd expect people to be a bit more passionate about learning DJ-related skills, generally speaking. I think that all this cheap DJ gear that makes certain aspects of DJing piss easy has just led to more lame fuckers getting into it. I think that the few who then go on to buy turntables and get into scratching would probably have done that anyway if cheap plastic controllers didn't exist.

[Vekked]

I have said this before but the appeal of scratching, way back when, seemed to be the ability to manipulate sampled sounds relatively cheaply, using only a turntable and mixer.

 

For about ten years there have been cheaper ways to manipulate sound that are more usable and require less effort to learn, of which midi controllers are one example. I think that's why scratching died/is dying/will die out.

I have said this before but you're dumb. Maybe that was the ORIGINAL appeal of scratching, like in the Grandmaster Flash days, before the sampler, but do you actually believe that's been the appeal since the idea of a "turntablist" came into existence? It's funny that for about 10 years there have been cheaper and easier ways, yet I'm guessing a lot of the people on here, if not the majority, haven't even been scratching 10 years, or not much longer.

 

I also don't think scratching can really be said to be dead... like some aspects of turntablism definitely aren't as big as they once were, but even in the last 6 years the landscape of scratching has changed immensely... like just look at loopers, scratch practice videos, technique discussion, the general level of scratching, etc, from about 2006 until now. People weren't talking about boomerangs, autobahns, etc 6 years ago. Loopers were barely starting to catch on 6 years ago. CCF and the France becoming a force in scratching just started 6 years ago, there was no Scratch Science at that time. Even more recently Poland, Russia, etc, seems to be coming out of the woodwork with a lot more crazy scratchers. Up until 2005 it was almost an exception for a battle DJ to be a beast on the cut compared to the level of bedroom scratchers, fast forward to this and between what I saw in both DMC and IDA I'd say 75% of competitors were above average to straight up sick on the cut... in other words it's now an exception to not be crazy on the cut. But you wouldn't know any of this now would you dopp? So then gtfo of the thread about scratching.

[Chris]

I think that all this cheap DJ gear that makes certain aspects of DJing piss easy has just led to more lame fuckers getting into it. I think that the few who then go on to buy turntables and get into scratching would probably have done that anyway if cheap plastic controllers didn't exist.

 

I definitely agree with this, but to those guys who get into it 'properly' after getting a controller, the controller is probably a much better gateway than a Numark DJ In A Box or whatever, because at least it works. So whilst yes, I think cheap and cheerful gear is a big reason that lots of lames are polluting DJing (I also think the dinky size is very important, delivery mechanism of music is very important, and perhaps most important is how successfully DJing has been consumerised over the past few years), there are two sides to the coin.

 

I don't think controllers have as much of an influence on scratching as it perhaps initially appears. The bottom line is things can only flourish if there's culture behind them, and just as people left scratching (or never got into it) for guitar, production, or a number of other things that meant more to them at the time, it's more the crowd effect that's making controllers seem exciting.

 

Even typing that sentence I thought of about ten more aspects to the debate so I'll stop now and chime in again in a bit.

[doppelkorn]

I think I touched a nerve there!

 

It sounds like you're trying very hard to defend a point from within a shrinking bubble of people. The number of people who come on here is tiny. Scratching is more niche than it ever was. Although the level of skill within that bubble might have risen, the bubble has shrunk. People weren't talking about boomerangs 6 years ago and now maybe 0.000001% of the world is talking about boomerangs. Progress!

 

Don't be mad because you're a big fish in a small pond, just enjoy what you do.

[Vekked]

Regarding MIDI controllers, I think it's hard to say either way.

 

I think a big reason for the decline of scratching is the decline of scratching in hip-hop music. That was the "gateway drug" for me - hearing it all the time on hip-hop tracks.

 

It's quite disheartening on sites like DJF to see people regularly saying "the audience don't care about this and that", cos even if that's true (which I don't think it is), you'd expect people to be a bit more passionate about learning DJ-related skills, generally speaking. I think that all this cheap DJ gear that makes certain aspects of DJing piss easy has just led to more lame fuckers getting into it. I think that the few who then go on to buy turntables and get into scratching would probably have done that anyway if cheap plastic controllers didn't exist.

Yea I think scratching/turntablism/hip-hop are all inherently tied together in a way so that's def somewhat the case.

 

Lol, yea I definitely get you on the "audience don't care" thing... like the mentality that technique doesn't matter, and apparently the only thing that separates 1 DJ from another is clothes and stuff, not actually ability. I think that it'll come around somewhat... it's just there's wayyy more new/shitty DJs who don't know anything and they're outweighing veteran DJs, so it'll take a while for the masses to come around and realize that there actually is an art to DJing.

 

Even though it lets a lot of lame peeps in, mostly people who choose midi controllers over anything else cuz they just wanna get into it as quickly and cheaply as possible to impress people or whatever, I think there are quite a few people where it's midi controller or nothing... and as terrible as they are in some ways, I still think they're better than nothing.

[Chris]

I don't think scratching's more niche than it ever was. I think more people than ever know what scratching is, and I think more people than ever fuck with it. I don't necessarily agree with Vekked on the general skill level going up, I think it's really just a bell curve because there are more people and there is a higher skill plateau, but you need to troll harder Mike. Perhaps try holding an even more untenable point in spite of mounting evidence that that's the case, and then at the last second switch your position like it's not a thing. That's a good one.

[doppelkorn]

None of us has produced any data to back up our three slightly diverging points yet mine is clearly the "untenable" one?

[DJ Rock Well]

I think that controllers are just another tool, which since high-res platters came along, can most definitely be scratched on. Like any tool, they're ultimately limited (or not) by the the hands that use them.

 

I don't see them displacing turntables yet, but I've got nothing against them. Things would definitely get more interesting if a high-res,12" spinning platter controller came out.

[Steve]

Lol, yea I definitely get you on the "audience don't care" thing... like the mentality that technique doesn't matter, and apparently the only thing that separates 1 DJ from another is clothes and stuff, not actually ability.

 

I think some of it is kinda "if I say it enough, maybe it'll come true", lol, cos I've had great reactions from crowds when I've done technical things, such as scratching, so I know that the "the audience doesn't care" thing is bollocks. Or at least, generalising about it is. A lot of the people saying that stuff have no real passion for DJing and so they'd love it if the audience really didn't care, cos that would mean that the things they couldn't be arsed to learn didn't matter.

 

Even though it lets a lot of lame peeps in, mostly people who choose midi controllers over anything else cuz they just wanna get into it as quickly and cheaply as possible to impress people or whatever, I think there are quite a few people where it's midi controller or nothing... and as terrible as they are in some ways, I still think they're better than nothing.

 

I agree with that totally. It all comes down to attitude at the end of the day. Me and 2ndHand used to cut on BSR turntables that cost £5 each cos that's all we could afford. If some cheap bit of gear was around back then that we could have scratched on, we'd have bought it. But the downside of that is that it means those that don't have a very good attitude - IMO anyway, when it comes to how they approach DJing as an art/skill - can get into it on the cheap, as they'd never have bothered spending £1,000+ on decks and even more on records. The expense was a built-in barrier to keep some of these people out, and I know that sounds very elitist, but I don't see anything wrong with being elitist here.

[Chris]

None of us has produced any data to back up our three slightly diverging points yet mine is clearly the "untenable" one?

 

Correct!

[doppelkorn]

Go on then. Don't leave me on tenterhooks.

 

Let the evidence mount.

[Vekked]

I think I touched a nerve there!

 

It sounds like you're trying very hard to defend a point from within a shrinking bubble of people. The number of people who come on here is tiny. Scratching is more niche than it ever was. Although the level of skill within that bubble might have risen, the bubble has shrunk. People weren't talking about boomerangs 6 years ago and now maybe 0.000001% of the world is talking about boomerangs. Progress!

The nerve is that you talk about how you don't scratch and don't like scratching, but apparently you're super knowledgeable about it.

 

 

Don't be mad because you're a big fish in a small pond, just enjoy what you do.

 

I've never tried to say anything I've done is remotely "big" in any meaningful sense, but I don't think it's too smart to take shots at something someone's done if you've done nothing nah mean? That's what we call hatin.

[Jimmy]

you forget how clever dopp is tho Vekked...

[doppelkorn]

I may not be super knowledgeable about scratching but I know this:

 

• There used to be many more organised and well attended scratch battles than there are now
• The manufacturer of one of the most popular turntables ever doesn't think it makes sense to keep manufacturing them
• The DMCs draw much smaller crowds in smaller venues these days
• There are fewer DMC regional events than there used to be

 

I'm not saying scratching is worse that it ever was, or trying to do it down, I'm saying it's demonstrably less popular.

[Vekked]

I don't think scratching's more niche than it ever was. I think more people than ever know what scratching is, and I think more people than ever fuck with it. I don't necessarily agree with Vekked on the general skill level going up, I think it's really just a bell curve because there are more people and there is a higher skill plateau

That might be true. Maybe it's an illusion, but my point with battling stands, like there are a lot more battle DJs in 2012 who are good at scratching by 2012 standards, than there were battle DJs in 2003 who were good by 2003 standards. And I feel like there's A LOT more examples of sick scratchers outside of your established names (ISP, Ned Hoddings, etc) than there were 6+ years ago. But again this could totally be 100% a result of internet/youtube/video recording technology all increasing and a higher frequency of good scratchers getting seen outside of their bedrooms.

I think some of it is kinda "if I say it enough, maybe it'll come true", lol, cos I've had great reactions from crowds when I've done technical things, such as scratching, so I know that the "the audience doesn't care" thing is bollocks. Or at least, generalising about it is. A lot of the people saying that stuff have no real passion for DJing and so they'd love it if the audience really didn't care, cos that would mean that the things they couldn't be arsed to learn didn't matter.

Yea I think it's definitely a generalization. Most of them are shooting for a kind of lowest common denomintor of a crowd... like your typical drunk local club crowd. Obviously they don't care about scratching, or mixing, or even good track selection for that matter. As with anything, not even DJing, there's not a direct correlation between skill and success, or skill and popularity. I don't even think there's a remotely strong correlation, but I think there IS still a correlation to some degree.

 

I think with scratching it doesn't necessarily matter... you can get big without it at all, and it's definitely more relevant in some scenes/music styles/contexts than others. But the biggest thing to being a successful DJ these days is having something that distinguishes you from other DJs. Scratching, turntablist stuff, general DJ skill is definitely still a valid method of achieving this. It's hard enough to separate yourself from every other DJ without limiting your skillset.

[Vekked]

I may not be super knowledgeable about scratching but I know this:

• There used to be many more organised and well attended scratch battles than there are now
• The manufacturer of one of the most popular turntables ever doesn't think it makes sense to keep manufacturing them
• The DMCs draw much smaller crowds in smaller venues these days
• There are fewer DMC regional events than there used to be

I'm not saying scratching is worse that it ever was, or trying to do it down, I'm saying it's demonstrably less popular.

 

 

The Technics point is kinda irrelevant. Panasonic is a huge company and even if something is big in a certain community, it could be a fraction of their bottom line overall. Also it's the change in trends of DJing as a whole towards CDJs/Midi controllers more than anything else that would cause this.

 

DMC is definitely smaller than it was at it's peak, but that's JUST battling, and battling is definitely less popular than it one was, but that doesn't mean scratching isn't as big. This is potentially reinforced by my point that scratching has gotten a lot better in battling, despite battling getting smaller... seems that scratching is still going pretty strong.

 

DMC has smaller crowds and venues these days, and has fewer regionals. However IDA sold out it's biggest venue this year, and had more countries than ever before, and had more western hemisphere representation than ever before. I also was told by a few sources that despite ITF battles being super sick as far as the DJs were concerned, some world finals has less than 100 people attend... compare that to 1200 people, an Imax screen, and live streaming video from the world finals. So DMC is definitely smaller, battling as a whole is definitely smaller, but not every aspect of battling is even going downhill. This might say more about DMC than the scene itself.

[doppelkorn]

OK so we have the data to show that battling is less popular. Just as a side note the DMC World Finals were at Wembley Arena at their peak, which seats 12,000, so that's 10x more than the IDAs this year, assuming it sold out.

 

Now, if we take your point that the best scratchers will use turntables (see your first post), and if the general skill level is going up, why would the biggest manufacturer of turntables stop production? If it was a profitable, growing venture they would surely continue, right?

 

As for the popularity of scratch music as a whole, when was consumption of scratch music greatest? I don't think it's right now. All those "classic" albums Steve posted the other day are from the late 90s-mid 00s. I suppose something released this year can't be called classic though can it but I'd like to see some evidence that recorded scratch music is not declining in popularity.

[Steve]

DJ turntable sales are down to a few thousand worldwide per year spread across all manufacturers.

 

I definitely don't think the scene is what it once was. When I was a moderator on DJF, one of the sections I modded was the DJ Techniques section where people would often ask about scratching. Now that's one of the least used sections of the site. The reason I bring up DJF is because that's a much bigger site than this one and is more representative of the DJ scene in general. You could argue that people into battling/scratching would go to more niche sites, but where? The ones I'm aware of all seem like small communities that don't get much traffic - basically the same as this place now.

[jimmy penguin]

i just did cuts for lone wolf using a cd deck...

 

go eat a deck...

[Jimmy]

ditto (except mine weren't for lone wolf, and probly alot less good, still tho)

[doppelkorn]

DJ turntable sales are down to a few thousand worldwide per year spread across all manufacturers.

 

I definitely don't think the scene is what it once was. When I was a moderator on DJF, one of the sections I modded was the DJ Techniques section where people would often ask about scratching. Now that's one of the least used sections of the site. The reason I bring up DJF is because that's a much bigger site than this one and is more representative of the DJ scene in general. You could argue that people into battling/scratching would go to more niche sites, but where? The ones I'm aware of all seem like small communities that don't get much traffic - basically the same as this place now.

 

They could go to Scratchworx! Oh...